Heroes... we need to talk.

[Farroes]

Kingtom calling people idiots because they don't agree with your view is a sure sign of an idiot imo.

Allowing crafters to defend themselves does not make this server less hardcore, in my view, it makes it even more hardcore, now us combatants cant just run up them and hack them to pieces with out any fear of loss. That sounds like an improvement to the overall gameplay experience for everyone.

To me it seems like you are very out of touch with how this change will affect the game, but hey, according to you I'm an idiot right?

Edit: Also, what Droowid said.

Just because its the internet you don't have to rage. You don't have to act like a jackass because you have no accountability.

I remember that to, I got really confused at first lol.

yes pls, pls... pls........ PLS OH GOD PLEASEEEE

also, 1-50 any first spec = 20-25 hours; 1-50 crafter specialization = 30-40 hours

 

[Kainzo]

I think (omg, I think??? lols) that what you have stated here is illegal. chests shops are for selling items not storing all your shit in a secure chest.

Correct, chestshop storage is illegal - selling items however is not, I personally have deleted the chestshops that are illegal and let their "spoils" spoil.

 

[FuzLogix]

I guess It's merely based upon Opinion. I believe everyone should be 90% something, and 10% another. Not 90% something, and 90% another, and 90% another. Then everyone is running around with everything and hardly anything is unique. I think if you REALLY need this, it should be a 6th path that is 50% combat, and 50% Pvp. Not EVERY Class.

EDIT: We are all Idiots, and you know it. Did I ever ONCE on this WHOLE forums EVER say I was NOT an idiot?

Your right, you didn't say that you didn't need to, your post speaks for itself..

I'll also quote Kainzo:

I'm posting this here because I want constructive feedback and the player base thoughts. Once you have stated your belief, please make room for others to do the same

 

[Zaspar]

Such an amazing idea! I could actually use diamond picks!

 

[Diffuse]

I remember walking through the path to warrior which i wanted to be, then being confused when i ran into "Path of the Crafter". This would at least make that less confusing

 

[toadsworth29]

I remember wondering WHERE THE FUCK IS THE CRAFTER DOOR?!?!?

 

[Demonxman]

I was confused until I asked what the fucking signs were for, I spent like 5 mins just standing in that room and looking at the signs....

 

[whitemagehealu]

Me too. Me too. xD

 

[MoeJunur]

Kingtom is ragin'.

MoeJunur, isn't using shop chests as a means to store goods illegal?

It seems like the only reason somebody would really be against everyone being able to do more (One of the few criticism's I've heard regarding this server is that some features that are usable by default, are restricted), is that they have no interest in one of the fields (combat or crafting) and so it doesn't benefit them, but it does benefit others.

It's pretty messy, I'll go read it now though.

You're definition of hardcore is a bit odd, why would the server be less hardcore if people had more options? Afterall this isn't a buff for one camp (PvP/Crafter) but for both, everyone improves. Unless your arguing that more fun is less hardcore.

Also, you highlight that crafters have a hard time when they encounter combat classes, and that combat classes are frustrated by their inability to use some of the more interesting building abilities (Gate, bridge etc.) Now you try and paint this SOLUTION as a bad thing.

Oh no, that level 45 dragoon who can't find anyone to fight can now spend some time helping build in his town for exp. Heaven forbid, those workers on a large unprotected project can fight against attackers on even terms..

If more people could cope in PvP, they would be more inclined to fight and not hide in their towns.
If people had two classes to master, the grind for levels wouldn't be so boring.
More shops, more competition for business.
Etc.

The use of chest shops is illegal, but what i am pointing to is that a player can kill another then run off to his/her/its place and place the stolen goods in a shop according to what was stolen, everyone will be able to have the shops.!!
Thats all i was saying, what do you think is happening now when a crafters goes to sell at a shop and he/she/it gets killed for the items carried. either its sold at the shop there, are taken to a buddy to sell, no one is storing all those items underground!! for use at a later date, maybe the kids are just burning them, who cares!!

 

[Sleaker]

ninja smiths will rape.

This statement is fully based on not understanding what we are talking about. When we say what do you guys think about splitting the crafter classes so they are subclasses it in no way means that the current Crafter classes would stay identical or have any combat abilities to begin with. The initial idea is for the crafter classes to function, as Kainzo said, more akin to WoW professions or EQ crafting. Please, please for the love of all that is holy stop this nonsense bantering about 'as long as crafters can't use their skills in pvp etc' - I'll break it down so no one can mis-interpret what's being suggested.

#1 - Crafting would be completely seperate from the other Classes
#2 - XP Gained would be split - meaning if you craft stuff it only goes towards Crafting Classes, if you kill stuff it goes towards Adventuring classes, (We're still thinking about block breaking etc).
#3 - Crafting skills would almost certainly require something akin to the construct/deconstruct which requires being pointed at crafting bench (probably implement & force requirements or something else like this).

- Any other pre-concieved notions coming from anyone other than Kainzo or Myself about making crafting universal are just silly.

Again about reasons: MC is through and through a 'crafter game' it's about building cool neat things. It is not at the moment an adventuring game, all though Heroes tries to push that, sometimes these aspects are lacking because of the codebase we work with. The ideas stem from wanting to provide players with more access to the game, right now I feel as if the class system provides players with too narrow of a play mechanic for how open of a game MC is. If this was a standard MMO, then maybe it'd be cool to stick to the UO style. The major difference is that in UO not everyone can build things. In MC there is a lot more crafting access, as opposed to other MMOs to the point that combat is the focus, so they give everyone Combat classes and tack on Crafting as an additional feature hoping to gain extra players. I feel that MC (and Heroes) need to work from the opposite side. Pull crafting out so it's the main focus like it always has been, and then adjust the Combat/Adventuring aspects as the game evolves, this is why I suggested this idea in the first place.

"But Sleaker", you say, "I simply don't like it because then the market for items will explode" - now see this is something that you can't quite know, I would think we would try to prevent this from happening through a couple methods such as controlling xp growth, etc.

 

[WoleverEntun]

So if i'm working towards a level 50 crafter, then would'nt my months of xp mining be worthless if some noob could start out a lvl 1 alchemist?

 

[Demonxman]

I think you have to level up a basic crafter first. or if it's straight to spec than tough fucking luck pal.

 

[Sleaker]

I think we should have it like in the game guild wars where, you get to classes one is your main ones not, the difference is, you get the armor and all skills for your main class and weapons, the secondary you dont get its armor but you get its weapons but not all the skill, like not that classes best skills. Its hard to explain but its a good system. To know more go to the guild wars wiki. Thanks for reading. -razael
5 minutes and no reply to my post. *shoots self in head*

This is something that I was considering/talking with Kainzo about, but it seemed like just seperating crafter/combat classes would end up being more fun in the long run. What you're suggesting is more FinalFantasyOnline/Runes of Magic/GW - rather than EQ2/WoW/Most other MMOs, it's not a bad idea, I just don't think it's fitting for Minecraft. GW doesn't have a very strong Crafting system (or one at all to my knowledge, maybe I missed something). Runes of Magic has a seperate crafting system in addition to it's dual class nature as does FFO (if I remember properly). So in the end, I feel like this suggestion is opposite of what Heroes has built up, or in the end doesn't equate to much of an argument against the split.

If Heroes was 100% skill based, something similar to Mortal Online/EVE, then I'd be all over having all different skills and limiting who can pickup what skill based on what they have, and all those kinds of things. But what is already built into heroes is a class based system not a skill based one, and if you look at established, well-operating MMOs they all have combat split from crafting, I think the only exception is UO. But you have to remember that all these games are Combat driven as opposed to MC which is Craft-Driven.

 

[dmil23]

I like killing helpless crafters who can't fight back. They don't deserve to fight if they pick crafter.

If this whole thing is true I will go smith and ninja. That way I can have my good armor and high damage, I've always got to stay OP!

 

[Razael6]

Understood.

 

[Karhzo]

Thats your job though Sleaker, your suppose to balance it so you cannot do smith/warrior and rape shit.

 

[ClimbingRopes]

I like this idea!

 

[jmoney222]

Need it implemented ASAP

 

[Sleaker]

Thats your job though Sleaker, your suppose to balance it so you cannot do smith/warrior and rape shit.

It's not really my job. I help provide the tools (Along with the other coders). Kainzo does the balancing. Sure the tools can factor into how things balance out overall, but honestly it more has to do with how everything is compiled together.

This whole discussion is provided to get an idea of what people think of having Crafting outside of the class system, the initial idea is 'crafting classes' but you know if someone suggested something completely different and convinced us and people on HC that it would be cool, I'd be all for it. The simplest method to do it just seems like rolling it as a 'secondary class' - but that doesn't mean we couldn't do something similar to professions like WoW, or EQ, or any of the other big MMOs.

The fact that 70% of the players want crafting split up in my mind confirms that MMOs haven't just miraculously come to the ideas of Crafting present in them. Why do WoW/EQ/LoTRO/insert other MMO, do Professions/Crafting the way they do? Cause it works, and it's been proven. I'm not saying we copy this, just pointing out what has been established in previous game development.

About HeroCraft being 'hardcore' - I can say that the general feel of HC being hardcore doesn't come from the crafter experience at all. In fact the Hardcore nature of HC has absolutely nothing to do with what you can build, or repair, or the like. The reason why HC feels Hardcore is simple: Cost/Reward ratios during Death and the ability for Players to steal from each other. This is what defines HC as in a sense 'hardcore' the fact that you can be stripped of nearly your entire efforts for a week simply because someone stumbles upon your little hovel in the forest. The hardcore-ness of the server essentially has very little to do with Heroes, and much more with the Rules set by the staff, along with minor tools that provide limited functionality: no /home, beds not respawning you if they are broken, not being able to freely lock chests, having to walk back to your death. All these things make up that hardcore feeling, if you start taking away these aspects, and not how Heroes/Crafting is done, then you begin to lose your hardcore feel.

@gabizou - in regards to 1.8 - none of these changes would come in beforehand (1.8 is scheduled sometime this/next week?) - on top of that, these changes would require some work/retooling to make sure they are up-to-snuff. The reason why we are throwing out ideas is to see what we can do for 1.8 to evolve Heroes into a better system.

EDIT: I expanded it a bit, might want to re-read.

 

[codyneace]

In ways I love this idea, because I would enjoy to have the best of both worlds in HC. But then again I believe our current set up actually enriches each player's contribution to a township.

Going with the combat/"profession" setup may or may not turn me away. I'm not insulting the idea in any way shape or form but its things such as this that have turned me away from WoW and playing Rift past a free trial stage. I guess what i'm trying to say is if Herocraft offers a unique MMO experience and this step could end up putting us on a path towards the current "melting pot" of MMO's