Suggestion [Heroes] Leveling and Player Retention

[CoolBeans279]

Pvp is bad rep?

Yup im an "asshole" for pvping.

 

[LightningCape]

As a former server owner I have dealt with and solved this problem a long time ago. I can see that it is a big problem.

Inherent in the leveling system is a mechanic that abuses new players and makes good fights between experienced players rare. The level difference has to be 5 or less most often. It also allows for a scenario where senior players can prevent less senior players from playing at all. This is because lower levels are at a severe disadvantage, which results in repeated death at the hands of camping players.

I've heard about this problem a lot on the outside of herocraft. A lot of my players refused to join me on herocraft for this reason. Now my entire town has been shut down temporarily because of this. I argue that it is unreasonable to force everyone on pvp to be nomadic until they grind to level 65. I would also argue that no person/group should be forced to log off to prevent being hunted repeatedly. These things are vital in a hardcore environment.

I would be happy to help code/config/balance any solution that will fix this problem.

Let's weigh the pros and cons.

Current Situation
Pros:
- Simple linear progression
- Strong sense of reward for gaining levels

Cons:
- Divides the server into PvE and PvP
- Punishes you for changing classes by sending you back to PvE until you are near max level
- Forces PvP players to play PvE or be harassed on the PvP server until they are near max level

Dynamic PvP Flagging and zoning (World of Warcraft solution)
Pros:
- Less divided server
- Reduced harassment
- Simple linear progression
- Strong sense of achievement when gaining levels

Cons:
- Reduced PvP
- Added complexity (where should I go to get a good fight?)
- Code development costs are higher
- Possible abuse of non-pvp flagged players stealing or spying

Flat leveling (TF2 solution)
Pros:
- Increased PvP (every fight is a good fight)
- Simple Progression
- Increased Variety (more classes with more fighting styles)

Cons:
- Weak sense of achievement when gaining levels (you don't unlock much or gain hp/damage/etc)

Dynamic Classes with Flat leveling (Star Citizen solution)
Pros:
- Non-linear progression (quests unlock skills to replace your current ones)
- Increased Variety
- Increased PvP
- Becomes a challenge to collect skills.

Cons:
- Added complexity
- Code development costs are higher

Dynamic Classes with PvP flagging (Skyrim solution)
Pros:
- Non-linear progression (quests unlock skills to replace your current ones)
- Increased Variety
- Less divided server
- Reduced harassment
- Becomes a challenge to collect skills.

Cons:
- Very high complexity
- Reduced PvP
- Code development costs are very high
- Possible abuse of non-pvp flagged players stealing or spying

Regardless if any single solution is the best this is something the server as a whole needs to address. I tired to address it in my great discussion post but it died fairly quickly. Would love to see more discussions.

 

[Carbash]

Yes, I know what Kainzo said, unfortunately if he can't make having a split server work (bring in and keep players), then he may just have to resort to changing the way things are done again. A single server is the better option, not a split one. A single server does not look like a ghost town when 10 people log off, a single server allows for better townships (more active players in said towns), a single server offers much more to do both PVP and PVE (due to more players on the same map).

Fact of the matter is the PVE map is here for now, yes, but if we can make them both work on the same map it would make for a much better experience.

 

[Multitallented]

Regardless if any single solution is the best this is something the server as a whole needs to address. I tired to address it in my great discussion post but it died fairly quickly. Would love to see more discussions.

I'm glad to hear what everyone wants. I'll have to go give your thread a read.

 

[Irishman81]

We also have to keep in mind that the adventure server is being worked on, and from my understanding there will be both PVP and pve areas. Observing how this works is important for player retention.

As a pvper myself, I love when there are lots of people on the pvp server, but I also have a part of me that just wants to be left alone sometimes, for building and leveling. I'd love to see some more discussion, as lightning said.

 

[Ultanian]

Yup im an "asshole" for pvping.

*as in "asshole" for spawn camping and going after low level players

 

[JenksLaw]

I think the best solution is to figure out a way to allow PVE and PVP players to mingle on the same server. I think PVP flagging is probably going to be the best bet. However, instead of using zones I would suggest making a PVP flag permanent. Add a little flavor by making a quest line to place the PVP tag on the players. This would be the EverQuest solution.


Pros:
-The sever looks full and there are people to interact with.
- I could kill PVE players with my traps

Cons:
- Not sure how to offer the same theft protection to PVE players that they currently enjoy in their residences and/or towns.
- I'm gonna kill some PVErs with traps

 

[JupiterRome]

*as in "asshole" for spawn camping and going after low level players

Gotta do what ya gotta do for pvp, I honestly don't get why people don't shut the fuck up about this most people that go after low levels are shitty enough where you can kill them as a low level @TheUberNerd #Level6

Edit

Yup im an "asshole" for pvping.

Your just a plain asshole? Jk luv u

 

[RShooter2000]

I still believe there should just be one server with everything on it, but that will never happen.

 

[Trazil]

Sometimes I wish we could go back to Bastion with no attributes, no PVE, and always somewhere to go and fight someone or Atleast something to do. Now it's pretty much I get on see like 5-10 others maybe kill them a few times then get off.

 

[CoolBeans279]

Sometimes I wish we could go back to Bastion with no attributes, no PVE, and always somewhere to go and fight someone or Atleast something to do. Now it's pretty much I get on see like 5-10 others maybe kill them a few times then get off.

DG was better than bastion, but yeah no attributes (more noob friendly) 1 map, more people, more fun, more pvp, noobs wouldnt be camped if there were actually people to pvp with.

 

[Trazil]

DG was better than bastion, but yeah no attributes (more noob friendly) 1 map, more people, more fun, more pvp, noobs wouldnt be camped if there were actually people to pvp with.

i wasn't here for DG R.I.P

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

@Multitallented regarding Townships 3.0, we were discussing early on about having different slants for PvP towns and PvE towns. Any thoughts yet on how Townships would work for PvE?

 

[casey33]

I would like to suggest making it to were killing a lost soul will give a penalty to the attacking player, as the lost soul is equivalent to a ant and to those with a higher class to be a boot

 

[CoolBeans279]

I would like to suggest making it to were killing a lost soul will give a penalty to the attacking player, as the lost soul is equivalent to a ant and to those with a higher class to be a boot

PvE.

 

[casey33]

PvE.

Not to add fuel to the fire but you seem to go for the easy targets and wont fight in a fair fight as a 1v1, then you complain when someone kills you

 

[Multitallented]

@Multitallented regarding Townships 3.0, we were discussing early on about having different slants for PvP towns and PvE towns. Any thoughts yet on how Townships would work for PvE?

None yet. We were thinking that PvE could have more focus on production, trade, economy, and automation. That doesn't mean that PvE could do anything that PvP couldn't, but rather that PvE doesn't have to worry much about power management, which would free up space for other buildings.

 

[MalaWolf]

After a long discussion with Multitalented about the current levelling system, the problems and possible solution I though I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I've never had an issue levelling classes on this map and have done the climb to 65 multiple times both solo and with groups. I also level on the pvp server and despite being ganked while levelling I've never felt a forced pressure to level on pve.

There is a defiant power difference between levels, however there is also a definite yet undiscussed skill difference aswell. A player that is familiar with the heroes plugin will have an advantage and able to win fights against higher levelled players that are less skilled, meaning that while there Is a power difference there is also a skill difference.

Furthermore you do not have to be level 65 before you can pvp, most classes get their primary combat skills around level 35-50 and from then on are able to pvp effectively. Paladin with divine stun at 45, Rune blade with fire rune at 40, Ranger with explosive shot at 30, ect. This is also enhanced from what I have witnessed pvping In almost all cases of my pvp not everyone is mastered, most people are in the middle of levelling and choose to pvp.

Finally I do agree that aggressive camping of beginner players is a bad thing and is hurtful to the server, however I do not see a "pve prison" as the only solution, there are other methods that people can use if they wish to play on the pvp map, and I do not feel that players are forced to play on pve as often as this forum post is showing. People have to options to join towns, or even ask for assistance in global chat. I know veteran players such as myself would be willing to jump in, even if it is a reason for more pvp.

Anyways, just my opinions on the topic and the issue of leveling a class