Good Grief - see what i did there?

[dils1]

flamewar w3w

 

[ADaringEnchilada]

While I somewhat agree with minor cases of breaking blocks (IE small pillars, holes in walls, random pits, etc.), your argument is poorly defended and executed. While I don't agree that using a pillar, or mining into a location is griefing, I do believe there needs to be a distinction.

First off, there is no such thing as good or neutral griefing. By definition: "A griefer is a player who does things in a games to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment. Such a player is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals."

However, forcing entry by any means necessary should ought not be called griefing as, although the intentions of the player may be to kill or harm the player, the supposed griefing is merely a byproduct or necessary action in order to get to the target.

Considering small pits, pillars, and holes in the wall are not technically meant to harm people for the player's enjoyment (as the griefer cannot be there to watch his pitfall work if it was merely a hole to get to a cave or other underground location) nor can it technically be called griefing. In this sense, your entire argument is flawed, as it is based entirely off the idea that an action creating a scenario intended to harm other players can be good.

Secondly, small incidents like this do not have a large impact on anybody, if they are large enough to petition, it's large enough for you to have staff investigate the creator, and then clean up yourself. Trying to catch players on small things will eventually lead to some sort of punishment, therefor if you deem it fit, it is your decision to do so.

Finally, in order to give your post a nice thrust and twist to the heart, your language is unbearable. You used the term "sissy" 7 times, "sissies" twice, "punk" six times, and "whine" 3 times. These slang terms are unbearable when trying to take someone seriously, seeing as it rapidly diminishes any decent impression someone may have had. The quote "punk sissy no life 12 year old" highly detracts to anything you say, as this is in your thesis and is part of your first impression. Similarly it shows a lack of vocabulary and puts you on the same level as the people you are accusing.Your language is mainly unfocused, on a general topic without decent points, and rather fuming. Similar to your poor word choice, is your use of anecdotes and analogies. You compared medieval warfare to minecraft, which is a really simple fallacy.

Now, had you chosen to do the better thing, and not emphasized entire sentences, you would have composed a few neat points and something to back them. Rather, you made rash accusations and insulted any one guilty of what you deemed griefing or not. Even better would have you using very polite language, trying to lightly refer to your targets without outright insulting them and misusing language to try and assert a false authority. Your prime method of conveyance was intimidation, and it doesn't work on people who have more confidence nor on people who know you are wrong in how you made your argument, and would like to take the time to pick apart the rather simple bits that stand out.

 

[MeganPerk]

While I somewhat agree with minor cases of breaking blocks (IE small pillars, holes in walls, random pits, etc.), your argument is poorly defended and executed. While I don't agree that using a pillar, or mining into a location is griefing, I do believe there needs to be a distinction.

First off, there is no such thing as good or neutral griefing. By definition: "A griefer is a player who does things in a games to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment. Such a player is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals."

However, forcing entry by any means necessary should ought not be called griefing as, although the intentions of the player may be to kill or harm the player, the supposed griefing is merely a byproduct or necessary action in order to get to the target.

Considering small pits, pillars, and holes in the wall are not technically meant to harm people for the player's enjoyment (as the griefer cannot be there to watch his pitfall work if it was merely a hole to get to a cave or other underground location) nor can it technically be called griefing. In this sense, your entire argument is flawed, as it is based entirely off the idea that an action creating a scenario intended to harm other players can be good.

Secondly, small incidents like this do not have a large impact on anybody, if they are large enough to petition, it's large enough for you to have staff investigate the creator, and then clean up yourself. Trying to catch players on small things will eventually lead to some sort of punishment, therefor if you deem it fit, it is your decision to do so.

Finally, in order to give your post a nice thrust and twist to the heart, your language is unbearable. You used the term "sissy" 7 times, "sissies" twice, "punk" six times, and "whine" 3 times. These slang terms are unbearable when trying to take someone seriously, seeing as it rapidly diminishes any decent impression someone may have had. The quote "punk sissy no life 12 year old" highly detracts to anything you say, as this is in your thesis and is part of your first impression. Similarly it shows a lack of vocabulary and puts you on the same level as the people you are accusing.Your language is mainly unfocused, on a general topic without decent points, and rather fuming. Similar to your poor word choice, is your use of anecdotes and analogies. You compared medieval warfare to minecraft, which is a really simple fallacy.

Now, had you chosen to do the better thing, and not emphasized entire sentences, you would have composed a few neat points and something to back them. Rather, you made rash accusations and insulted any one guilty of what you deemed griefing or not. Even better would have you using very polite language, trying to lightly refer to your targets without outright insulting them and misusing language to try and assert a false authority. Your prime method of conveyance was intimidation, and it doesn't work on people who have more confidence nor on people who know you are wrong in how you made your argument, and would like to take the time to pick apart the rather simple bits that stand out.

text wall crits for 9000. Boringness finishes off opponent x_x ty for ur... profesionalism? and i apologize if i offended you for not being so proper, its just not who i am.

PS - i like calling people sissies :3

 

[Oryinn]

Even before I was a Mod, most of you know my location was a haven for multiple griefs a day.

I tried not to report them unless they were the same person over and over, or a major item.

the old adage still sticks "If it takes you as long to Fix it as it does to file a PE then just fix it"

that being said I will still come to a silly one block grief if you request, but please understand
the amount of PE's the staff tries to do each day. and use common sense...

I agree with your post except for:
I tried not to report them unless they were the same person over and over, or a major item.
I heard there were ~13 petitions
But I like you now airbusss I hope we can settle our differences since I never tried to before.

 

[ADaringEnchilada]

It's only 575 words, which really isn't that much. Similarly, I quite enjoy calling people morons, sluts, dickbags, etc., but it's not professional to use that sort of language in a formal situation, which is why I didn't. It also diminishes respect, because I definitely don't talk like this because it's not my style of speech, but I write like this because it is appropriate. You don't need to be upper-class, super rich, and snobbish to write like this. Personality doesn't influence how you write if you know how to write properly.

 

[Aerokii]

It's only 575 words, which really isn't that much. Similarly, I quite enjoy calling people morons, sluts, dickbags, etc., but it's not professional to use that sort of language in a formal situation, which is why I didn't. It also diminishes respect, because I definitely don't talk like this because it's not my style of speech, but I write like this because it is appropriate. You don't need to be upper-class, super rich, and snobbish to write like this. Personality doesn't influence how you write if you know how to write properly.

While at first I'm inclined to ask why a formal writing style would be required for a gaming forum, I decided to spend more time hung up on the last line written, about how personality doesn't influence how one writes, if one writes properly. I find the opposite, actually- my writing is much better when I let my personality within it shine! I think such statements are generally more context dependent- perhaps for a term paper, you'd want a more professional style, but if you're discussing with friends your thoughts on a game, you'd prefer something with a little more personality and flare, to get your message across.

 

[ADaringEnchilada]

While at first I'm inclined to ask why a formal writing style would be required for a gaming forum, I decided to spend more time hung up on the last line written, about how personality doesn't influence how one writes, if one writes properly. I find the opposite, actually- my writing is much better when I let my personality within it shine! I think such statements are generally more context dependent- perhaps for a term paper, you'd want a more professional style, but if you're discussing with friends your thoughts on a game, you'd prefer something with a little more personality and flare, to get your message across.

I really worded that poorly, but I can't think of a fast way to say it. Basically, it doesn't matter what kind of person you are, you can right formally without much trouble. Your personality does not necessarily have to negatively effect your writing style, but this does not go to say that you can't have a personality that positively influences your ability to write formally (which you display.) In this sense, I let my personality largely display itself in my writing. If you haven't picked up on it by now, I can be an arrogant bastard, even if I don't have the slightest the clue as to what I'm talking about. An atmosphere of confidence can make all the difference.

If you know how to write formally, you will try to avoid common language (IE terms like sissies, particularly when used repetitively with no sort of substitute word) and structure sentences with decent flow. Of course, I don't expect anyone to be extremely formal, such an aggressive post towards a collection of unrelated and anonymous players isn't easy to write in a very sophisticated manner. Rather, you would probably see more of a discussion on the behavior, not the suspect. It would be far easier to write about not petitioning these events because you want vengeance rather than rant about the players who do so. Similarly, you would want to add bits of somewhat pertinent information or topic that reinforces your point by distinguishing it from such an ambiguous term, such as defining griefing and then trying to differentiate between common acts often misinterpreted as griefing. This reinforces your point because critics can no longer pick at that point.

This style of writing is what would get praise in the suggestions sub forum. It has a clear point, it is clearly distinguished and cleared of ambiguity, and it is written in a language that an unfamiliar audience would find easier to form a high opinion of the author with no further information besides what is given in the way they deliver their argument. The more holes you poke in someone's argument, the more difficult it is for their argument to hold water. Basic logic says that if a bucket has holes, it cannot hold water. Basic argument states that if your argument has untruths, it cannot be true. Although I am no expert in any sort of field, I've got a skill set that allows me to give the impression that I do. In an unfamiliar audience, my personality which can be derived from my writing is that of someone without doubt that they are right, whether or not they are.

 

[RedKhan]

I bet you never had trouble writing those 20 page essays in school, eh Enchilada?

 

[Diffuse]

Arrogance is a trait that nobody likes and there is no better way to display it than the way you currently are daring. This is an internet forum for a game that nobody would ever describe as being particularly complex. As such, it should go without saying that formality is something that is definitely not necessary when posting. In a real argument you should present your points clearly and professionally, but in the case of a video game there is no reason to even bother with that kind of thing. If you want to seem more intelligent, at least in my opinion, look straight through the randomness and lack of professionalism in posts and see what they are really trying to say no matter the way they say it. To me the tone that comes from the post tells me about their character, but neither adds nor detracts from the content of their post.

 

[Aerokii]

Alllllright, we're getting a little off topic again, and I take partial responsibility this time, haha. Even if some of the points being made are fair.

So! how 'bout those minor griefs, eh?

 

[MeganPerk]

Arrogance is a trait that nobody likes and there is no better way to display it than the way you currently are daring. This is an internet forum for a game that nobody would ever describe as being particularly complex. As such, it should go without saying that formality is something that is definitely not necessary when posting. In a real argument you should present your points clearly and professionally, but in the case of a video game there is no reason to even bother with that kind of thing. If you want to seem more intelligent, at least in my opinion, look straight through the randomness and lack of professionalism in posts and see what they are really trying to say no matter the way they say it. To me the tone that comes from the post tells me about their character, but neither adds nor detracts from the content of their post.

diffuse, ur a wonderful pvper, but dont feed the troll.

 

[ADaringEnchilada]

If you think I'm trolling, you're wrong. I posted a legitimate response criticizing your method, but making my own statement and defense to make up where you were lacking. A troll would use a bunch of blanket statements, or accuse you without actual defense, or argue against what even they believe in for the sake of arguing. Rather instead it would seem that you're misinterpreting my response, taking the hostility in it and interpreting it as trolling. Lack of comprehension and understanding also play into this, thus your only response is to take the threat lightly and play it down by making it a mere trolling event, which I can assure you it is not.

Also, to you diffuse, arrogance will make or break your argument. You may think of a stuck up asshole who is ignorant in the face of facts. This sort of arrogance however, is the ability to convey a message with a confident stance, regardless of the quality of the evidence used to back you. If you are to be arrogant in a good sense, you will be able to persuade, even if you are unsure about the credibility or quantity of your support. I can say things boldly and without hinting at doubt and people will believe me, because my attitude makes them believe before they check to criticize.

On the topic of 'minor griefing', Aceshooter brought to me an excellent term that should be used universally throughout this server to replace the term griefing in certain situations. What Ace proposed to me was that we use the term vandalize rather than grief. Vandalism, although capable of being malicious in intent, is similarly capable of being indiscriminate. Thus, when you find a hole in your wall because a thief was searching for your items, he did not grief you, he vandalized you. If you use this term more often, the severity of the crime can be judged without any further description in the form of adjectives, as well as putting that level of action on its own scale separate of griefing.

Now, I am not for uncleaned vandalism, I'm rather against it as it annoys me. I will petition most actions like these to harm the player who made it (particularly if I hold something against them) because I want them punished, even if it is such a small infraction. What I am against, is how you view the whole ordeal. You are suggesting that we ignore all these small cases, because they won't build up. Typically ignorance solves nothing, and only inflames the situation. Telling people to stop whining about this is like telling your co-workers to stop filing reports on inappropriate or obnoxious behavior that interrupts normal work-flow. Notice that this is not a direct comparison, this is a simile or analogy relating two seemingly unrelated events. This is a sound defense as both, although different in mechanism are same in consequence. Should, in either case, this behavior be ignored, the lack of punishment will only instigate more bad behavior from more people. Similar to your view to which I object, is your execution which I feel failed miserably. This may be the person you are, but if you are going to make such vast assumptions, critical remarks, and thoughtless insults, then you better be prepared for equally harsh criticism. Had you instead wrote this properly and elegantly, hardly anyone would want to reject because the article itself, regardless of its contents, will be appealing enough so as to make the audience ignore the flaws because that would be unjust to the quality of the writing.

Had you made this correctly and without so many easy flaws to pick at, these responses would not be nearly as personal, because the only flaws left to point out are not personal ones, but ones of content. Should you wish to blame anyone for the targeted nature of this response, blame only yourself. Whatever I post, I always expect more than just criticism, because I'm used to it. If you post an inflammatory and rather immature article, expect justifiably harsh criticism.

 

[Punisher79]

Quantity over Quality.

Hmm. Interesting ploy.

haha, im jk.

But im seriously ready to lock this thread.

 

[ADaringEnchilada]

Quantity is a side effect of me being incapable of fully conveying an idea in a simpler manner. If you feel like this thread ought to be locked, you have all the right to do so. However, if you are reasoning that my recent posts are to incite off-topic argument and that is your justification, I would think again. I responded to her post as everyone else does, for my own reasons. Although I like the idea, I don't like the manner in which the material is presented, therefore I put in my own response declaring this. To defend my points, I went into detail as to why I don't agree at all with the execution of this idea as one is supposed to do when one makes a statement. I also responded appropriately as people responded to me. Megan tried to blame her personality on why she didn't write it in a more favorable manner, and I didn't like that logic at all either. In response to my own, other people picked out sections they didn't agree with. This only happened for a few posts, and is not yet out of hand. Aerokii even takes blame for derailing this (whether it is his fault or not) and tried to put the current discussion back on topic. In my more recent post, I did so. I defended from already made claims so as not to appear beaten, and restated what I had said earlier, but in a more detailed and more refined manner.

Just keep that in mind before you lock a thread which is not currently in need of locking. The conversation has been mild and easily controllable, and locking it would accomplish nothing, bar frustrating some people who had their own opinion and saw the thread perfectly fine for more responses. If you want my advice, do not continue to threaten this thread with locking, because I'm sure more people will want to post their take on the original post, or on mine, or on the other 2 pages of other people's posts. If you think this thread ought to be locked because it was inflammatory, then it should have been locked long ago rather than letting it go on and inflame people, which it has yet to do.

 

[Punisher79]

Im not going to lock this thread... but I am... disappointed that leveler heads haven't prevailed.

This banter back and forth, has imo, outplayed its usefulness in discussing the topic at hand, and had become little more than a pissing match over who wields the stronger literary skills.

Please consider NOT pointing fingers at each other. In doing so, you only fuel the frustrations of others, because it is plainly obvious to see that this topic has sparked a high degree of passion among its participants.

Both parties (are their more than 2?) are equally guilty of playing the blame game here. How about we call this one a draw, and leave it at that?

Yes, yes. Your extensive vocabulary is impressive. Now I'd like to see this effort re-applied to something constructive.

 

[Brutalacerate]

@Megan , do you wish for this thread to be locked or are things civil enough for you?

 

[MajorasMask]

As we are all posting our views, and while the thread AIN'T locked yet, may aswell do mine!

I think there needs to be harsher punishments to griefing. I trust admins/mods do punish these people, but most of the replies to me petitions end in ''I will warn the guy'' or ''I will talk to them''. What if they never log back in? Then come in waaaaay later? Not that much to a new player, really, just warning them is not going to do much. It would also be nice to know who griefed, so we can either get revenge by killing them or by making sure we don't add them to our townships.

As for rules, fine mostly. I wish there would be a ''CHOP DOWN THE WHOLE TREE'' rule! Or maybe even something to make sure they replant the tree aswell. I am sure you all have seen the South-Road out of Zeal and... yes... I think that is enough evidence to suggest we need to, somewhere, include the wilderness in the griefing rules.

 

[MeganPerk]

ty for getting us back on track majora :3

i actually think that giving hawkeye in the hands of some normal people, like donators/mayors/etc would make it so that they could see who did the griefing and seek out justice instead of having to wait for and bother the staff to figure out whodunit. i dont think access to the simple /hawk tool would effect too many problems for people who are able to own and upkeep regions. It would enable the playerbase to get their own justice while informing the admin team of the griefer with a simple screenshot on the forums. Just my opinion though...

and no brutal, as long as unmensoensalada or whatever his name is can keep himself tamed, theres no reason to lock it
just remember not to feed the trolls :3

 

[Xanipher]

ty for getting us back on track majora :3

i actually think that giving hawkeye in the hands of some normal people, like donators/mayors/etc would make it so that they could see who did the griefing and seek out justice instead of having to wait for and bother the staff to figure out whodunit. i dont think access to the simple /hawk tool would effect too many problems for people who are able to own and upkeep regions. It would enable the playerbase to get their own justice while informing the admin team of the griefer with a simple screenshot on the forums. Just my opinion though...

and no brutal, as long as unmensoensalada or whatever his name is can keep himself tamed, theres no reason to lock it
just remember not to feed the trolls :3

Use of hawkeye is restricted because the queries can cause server strain in cases, guides+ have the ability. The problem with this is that, even though you can see who did it, we have to check it anyways to add to our personal records.

As we are all posting our views, and while the thread AIN'T locked yet, may aswell do mine!

I think there needs to be harsher punishments to griefing. I trust admins/mods do punish these people, but most of the replies to me petitions end in ''I will warn the guy'' or ''I will talk to them''. What if they never log back in? Then come in waaaaay later? Not that much to a new player, really, just warning them is not going to do much. It would also be nice to know who griefed, so we can either get revenge by killing them or by making sure we don't add them to our townships.

As for rules, fine mostly. I wish there would be a ''CHOP DOWN THE WHOLE TREE'' rule! Or maybe even something to make sure they replant the tree aswell. I am sure you all have seen the South-Road out of Zeal and... yes... I think that is enough evidence to suggest we need to, somewhere, include the wilderness in the griefing rules.

Punishment levels are sufficient, though you get a 'cookie cutter' response, things are being done about it. Most people smarten up after the first warning. The first warning is done like this, we message them on the forum and in minemail, we inform them the next infraction is a 3 day ban. If the first incident was really bad, such as destroying half a house or if it was malicious, we go straight to a 3 day ban. Then if they grief again after, even if its not that bad, it goes to a week ban, then a month, then permanent. We rarely reach the one week mark with people. It's all based on severity, we can choose to perma ban at any time.

 

[MajorasMask]

Punishment levels are sufficient, though you get a 'cookie cutter' response, things are being done about it. Most people smarten up after the first warning. The first warning is done like this, we message them on the forum and in minemail, we inform them the next infraction is a 3 day ban. If the first incident was really bad, such as destroying half a house or if it was malicious, we go straight to a 3 day ban. Then if they grief again after, even if its not that bad, it goes to a week ban, then a month, then permanent. We rarely reach the one week mark with people. It's all based on severity, we can choose to perma ban at any time.

Fair enough!