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Suggestion [General] Ninja/Thief Armor

w0nd3rb0y

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
May 4, 2012
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
would it make more sense for ninjas and thieves to have better armor? I mean the classes are intended to be all close range fighting. One fight with a warrior and your leather armor is broken. So would it be possible to up the armor to chain chest and leggings with leather helm and boots?
 

Fjordsen

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
would it make more sense for ninjas and thieves to have better armor? I mean the classes are intended to be all close range fighting. One fight with a warrior and your leather armor is broken. So would it be possible to up the armor to chain chest and leggings with leather helm and boots?
Imagine a ninja who sneak around in chain armor. It just doesn't fit at all, it's supposed to be sneaky but how can a Ninja be sneaky with heavy armor?

Warriors are supposed to out-match rogues. If rogue get armor, it will unbalance the system.
 

Diffuse

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Balance > realism

Also pvp triangles are shit tier and anyone who thinks they work is retarded.
 

Fjordsen

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
Balance > realism

Also pvp triangles are shit tier and anyone who thinks they work is retarded.
No reason to be so angry about it, lol. I was just stating my opinion, and there is no reason to call me retarded.
 

Joka10

Soulsand
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
There are many things Ninja needs (not so much thief, that's a pretty good class), but armor is not one of them. Ninja needs better stamina (either more, quicker regen, or lower use), needs Garrote to actually have some major advantage over Kick, needs lower cooldowns, and needs its skills to not broadcast messages >:eek: Rogues are not supposed to be tough when it comes to armor. They're supposed to deal devastating damage quickly and easily, though, and with the exception of thief (and bard which is just a group buff/AoE guy), none of them really accomplish that. Like half of Ranger's skills are useless, and Ninja's stamina is so low, cooldowns so high, and class-specific damage/silencing skills so weak that it is basically impossible to deal a ton of damage quickly. The solution to Ninja's suckiness does not lie in armor, but in making the class more effective, particularly by increasing stamina. Thief is really fine as is, I think.
 

w0nd3rb0y

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
May 4, 2012
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
I agree Joka, I guess I was looking for a quick fix, although ninjas deal 12 damage with diamond, armor mid agates damage, garrote should give a like a 7-8 sec silence becasue it requires you to be sneaking or smoked. making it difficult to do over kick. A level 45 skill that only deals 10 dmg with a 4 second silence where kick does 7 with 5 second silence. I think it would be cool for garrote to do suffocation damage 2 hp every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. because garrote wire is used to choke your victim. thats 20 damage, and add a second of silence.
 

spartanman118

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
There are many things Ninja needs (not so much thief, that's a pretty good class), but armor is not one of them. Ninja needs better stamina (either more, quicker regen, or lower use), needs Garrote to actually have some major advantage over Kick, needs lower cooldowns, and needs its skills to not broadcast messages >:eek: Rogues are not supposed to be tough when it comes to armor. They're supposed to deal devastating damage quickly and easily, though, and with the exception of thief (and bard which is just a group buff/AoE guy), none of them really accomplish that. Like half of Ranger's skills are useless, and Ninja's stamina is so low, cooldowns so high, and class-specific damage/silencing skills so weak that it is basically impossible to deal a ton of damage quickly. The solution to Ninja's suckiness does not lie in armor, but in making the class more effective, particularly by increasing stamina. Thief is really fine as is, I think.

I'm going to start off with, ninja/thieves are melee classes and you should treat them as such. They shouldn't rely on their skills as muh as you say or you are playing the class WRONG. So they don't need more stamina than you think. Just play the class right and don't charge your target like a tank. (Hint: Sneak up on them using "sneak")

As a rogue spec you get one of the best skills in the game, sneak. So when you are saying you can't use garrote in a fight because it requires "sneak" again, you are playing the class WRONG.

Sorry about "de-raling" the conversation, but as for armor I think they could use maybe use a slight buff. But they are supposed to sneak up on their target so they should be doing a lot of damage before their enemy has even had time to react to them.

(I have mastered/played ninja so I do know how to play them.)
 

w0nd3rb0y

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
May 4, 2012
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
If we are a sneaking class then garrote should be your open if coming up from behind, but as a level 45 skill it sucks, if you are hit you unsneak, which keeps you from using it. it only does 10 damage. as a lvl 1 ninja my sword does more damage. it should be a higher damage. I know how to play it, but there are other classes who have MUCH more devastating skills that adding 20 damage for garrote. expecially if it was a dot attack with suffication like i stated above
 

spartanman118

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
If we are a sneaking class then garrote should be your open if coming up from behind, but as a level 45 skill it sucks, if you are hit you unsneak, which keeps you from using it. it only does 10 damage. as a lvl 1 ninja my sword does more damage. it should be a higher damage. I know how to play it, but there are other classes who have MUCH more devastating skills that adding 20 damage for garrote. expecially if it was a dot attack with suffication like i stated above
Like I said, you are a melee class and you shouldn't rely as much on your skills.

Garrote isn't about damage but a silence, so it's fine where it is. And it should require you to be sneaking because that is your biggest advantage as a rogue spec.
 

Joka10

Soulsand
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
I too am a master Ninja...

Spoiler, because it's long:
I wasn't even talking about the requirement to be sneaking when you use Garrote when I said it was a bad skill. It does I think 2 more damage than kick and silences for 1 second longer. You get kick at level one, and garrote at level 45. To me, 45 levels is worth more than an extra 2 damage and a second more of silencing. I wasn't thinking about the sneak requirement, but upon reflection, it is annoying that you have to be sneaking to use it, because if someone gets the first hit on you (which happens very often), you aren't sneaking anymore. If Garrote were actually worth any major amount more than kick, then the sneak requirement would be fine. However, as of now, it does hardly any more. If you can sneak up behind a person while using sneak, then great, you just got a garrote on them... 4 (5?) seconds of silence and like 9 damage... and like half of your stamina. It's really rather difficult to sneak up right behind someone in the open wilderness, though. Often you'll only do it successfully in an area with a lot of hiding spots. An open field doesn't really have that many. So, to get a successful garrote off in an area like that, you've got to use smoke so they don't see you when you use it, or you've got to use one to catch them before they can react. Both of those skills consume a ton of your EXP. If you use garrote with one of them, you are down to the point where you cannot even sprint.

That is my main concern with Ninja. With a melee class, you shouldn't rely a ton on skills, but you should actually be able to use them somewhat effectively. When it comes to Ninja, you cannot use two skills and still even be able to sprint. Ninja has 5 true combat skills; kick, blackjack, garrote, envenom, and eviscerate. It has 4 utility skills; one, smoke, sneak, backflip. You would probably start a fight in sneak though you probably wouldn't stay in it long enough to do anything with it, and you'd probably start with blackjack. However, if you want to use your utility skills to any sort of effect other than fleeing (and even that is difficult), you can't use a single combat skill in combat.

Heroes melee classes are mainly meant to hit the other guy a lot with a weapon. Vanilla melee classes (class singular, actually; the standard Minecraft player) are mainly meant to hit the other guy a lot with a weapon. The primary reason that Heroes melee and Vanilla melee are different is that Heroes melee involves skills. The main purpose is still to hit the other guy a lot, but you have some added bonuses. Skills are there for you to use, not to rely on. You are correct there. However, with Ninja, it is impossible to really even use skills at all. You can use one skill and still be able to sprint, pretty much. When you say not to rely so much on skills in combat with Ninja, you are basically saying don't use skills in combat as Ninja. So, if someone is to use the class based off of that, it might as well just be a crafter class, because you'd only be able to fight with Ninja as vanilla.


Currently, when it comes to combat, Ninja is a pretty bad class. Ninja/Thief and Warrior classes are similar in that they are both melee. Some Warrior specs may not have too many skills to use in combat, I guess, according to what you are saying (although I've fought pretty much every Warrior spec except Paladin, and my screen is spammed with skill messages that aren't mine), but even if that is true, they make up for it with armor. Ninja/Thief are supposed to be sneaky high DPS classes. Thief is pretty good because it has many helpful combat skills (eviscerate, confuse, kick, backstab especially) as well as high-damage hits. It lacks heavy armor, but it makes up for it with the combat abilities (which it can actually use pretty effectively) and damage it has. Ninja has high sword hits, but it doesn't really have many helpful combat abilities when it comes to a fight with anyone other than a caster. Eviscerate has a 20 second cooldown and high stamina use. Envenom does a good amount of poison damage and uses like a third of your stamina, not too bad. Blackjack only works sometimes (rarely, it seems). Thief has backstab instead of garrote as a true combat skill (confuse just confuses them). That is helpful in any fight. Ninja's Garrote is only helpful (and that is a stretch) in very specific situations, generally only against casters too. Using it on a melee class will just stop them from using bleed on you or something.

You say that as a melee class you shouldn't rely a bunch on skills... If Thief didn't rely a lot on skills, then when Ninjas and Thiefs fought, the results would be much more level than they are now. And if Warrior (and specs) didn't rely on skills, they would just be the standard vanilla Minecraft guy who has a lot of armor. Skills are not the only part of combat by any means, but Ninja is bad because it cannot effectively use any good skills in a fight.


and


I agree Joka, I guess I was looking for a quick fix, although ninjas deal 12 damage with diamond, armor mid agates damage, garrote should give a like a 7-8 sec silence becasue it requires you to be sneaking or smoked. making it difficult to do over kick. A level 45 skill that only deals 10 dmg with a 4 second silence where kick does 7 with 5 second silence. I think it would be cool for garrote to do suffocation damage 2 hp every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. because garrote wire is used to choke your victim. thats 20 damage, and add a second of silence.
It's funny because even though when you try to use Garrote while not sneaking, you get a message saying you need to be sneaking or invisible, if you are in Smoke without Sneak on as well, Garrote still won't work. I suggested a similar suffocation thingy in a couple threads a while ago. The general consensus about it is that it would be difficult to balance, but much better than what Garrote is now. I don't know what the coding difficulty would be though.
 

Malomarcus

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
You realize that rogue, for a long time was meant to its skills a lot more for melee. Thieves and ninjas got skills like kick, garrote, blackjack, envenom and eviscerate to make this ore evident. Even when you do 12 damage, it usually is not enough and you use your skills to make the fight fair. If you didn't have as many skills as a rogue, you would be a frail warrior.
 

Wild_Porygon

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
May 16, 2012
This is ridiculous, rogue specs are supposed to be squishy, the whole point of them is the element of surprise, they are supposed to deal high damage, and fast, armor is for warrior specs because they last longer and deal lower damage. The silence times shouldn't be changed because a well played ninja with well timed attacks can take out any caster/healer spec with ease.
 

Joka10

Soulsand
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
This is ridiculous, rogue specs are supposed to be squishy, the whole point of them is the element of surprise, they are supposed to deal high damage, and fast, armor is for warrior specs because they last longer and deal lower damage. The silence times shouldn't be changed because a well played ninja with well timed attacks can take out any caster/healer spec with ease.
Yes, but so can a thief and a ranger. The difference between ninja and those two classes is that those two classes (especially thief, not so much ranger) also have a somewhat fair chance in a fight with a non-caster spec. Ninja almost always dies if not fighting a caster or healer because it is so weak.
 

spartanman118

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
You do know that you have a "sword" that does 12 damage, and a skill that does INSTANT (20 - 25 can't remember off the top of my head) damage without the need of a reagant or anything, correct? And if you can space out your skills correctly and use this "sword" in-between each of your skills you can do a lot of damage/get away pretty easily. As a ninja you should be sneaking up on your target no matter what, either with sneak/smoke. Do not run straight towards a Dread Knight when you know you can't take them like that, then complain because you died so easily (of your own fault). Please learn to play your class correctly and stop trying to get un-needed buffs on a class that is perfectly fine.
 

Joka10

Soulsand
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
You do know that you have a "sword" that does 12 damage, and a skill that does INSTANT (20 - 25 can't remember off the top of my head) damage without the need of a reagant or anything, correct?
So does thief. If that is what you base how good the class is off of, then the amount of kills gotten on different classes by thief and ninja should be pretty even.

They're not. They aren't even close.

You can't sneak infinitely, and both sneak and smoke consume a ton of your stamina. If you use smoke to sneak up on a person, you use eviscerate and then can't sprint at all, no knockback, no chance of escape, no nothing. I know perfectly well how to play the class. I wasn't referring to running into a fight with a DK when I said thief has a fair chance. I meant that if someone other than a caster or healer attacks a thief, thief actually could do well. Ranger, if range is on its side, can take down anyone. Ninja however, save when in a fight with a caster or a healer (or an unspec), even if it sneaks up on someone, does not stand a chance. Stamina regenerates at like half an icon per second. Eviscerate uses about half of that bar, and smoke uses the same. If you use smoke to sneak up on someone and eviscerate, you can't get away. In most fights where this is an issue, you don't get a chance to let your stamina regenerate before you are killed.

I don't know how long it has been since you were a Ninja, what has changed since then, or what fights you got into as the class, but I know from experience that if I ask the majority of people who are currently master Ninjas whether or not they think the class is as good for PvP as other rogue specs, they're going to say no.
 

spartanman118

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Ninjas are amazing at PvP. Like I said "Please learn to play your class right."

You use sneak before you go into combat so you have full stamina, because the skill last for about 8 MINUTES. The same thing with blackjack, you use it before you go into battle so you don't waste stamina when you need it.

Why are you opening with eviscerate? You don't use eviscerate unless you see them pull out a health potion or they start to heal because of the fact that it's INSTANT damage without any reagants. You don't need to use garrote/kick unless you are fighting a caster/healer because warriors don't depend upon their skills as much.

Playing mostly melee classes I understand your frustrations without being able to run. So I think of it like this, learn your class and your combo's to see what you can do with the stamina you have. If you over judge your skills you get the punishment of not being able to run. So please, learn your class because ninjas are better off than you make them out to be.
 

Joka10

Soulsand
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
I don't open with eviscerate. I only said that because that's what you said. You use sneak long before, yes, but blackjack gives a message on activation and deactivation and only lasts like two minutes. Plus, it's only useful on like the 7% chance that it works. And thief has an advantage in a fight with any class because of backstab/confuse as special combat skills, whereas ninja only has an advantage over caster/healer with garrote as a special combat skill. That only even works if in sneak, and you can only successfully sneak up on someone without using any skills that use messages until you're right on them. Otherwise, they're on their guard and an AoE like IcyAura will even stop you in smoke. I've been Ninja since like March. I know the class pretty well, I'd say, and I have tried so many different combos that I know none work effectively. Two skills eat your stamina completely, and that's including backflip, smoke, one, or escapeartist. A 2 skill combo that dropped your stamina to nothing MIGHT be okay if they were actually PvP skills that work against all classes and not just caster-repelling silencers, but Ninja doesn't have skills like that other than Envenom (which is DoT and not that effective if someone is actively trying to murder you), Blackjack (doesn't really even count), and Eviscerate. Thief has both of those, plus Confuse and Backstab. Thus, it can be pretty effective against any class. Ninja's only unique PvP skill is Garrote, which is barely worth more than Kick and does effectively nothing against a Rogue or Warrior. It gets this instead of something like Backstab. Garrote is gained at level 45 and is worthless anywhere but when fighting caster/healer, and it is taking up space where Ninja could have a really good skill helpful in any fight.

I love Ninja as a class because of Backflip and the sneakiness and speediness. I'm annoyed that in most situations I can only use the sneakiness and speediness to any effect if I'm trying to escape. Ninja is a PvP class; a Ninja should not be restricted to using two of its staple skills mainly for escaping. I love Ninja because EscapeArtist and Kick make casters and healers pretty easy to kill. I hate the fact that there's really no chance of a fair fight with another class as Ninja because the skills are only effective against casters/healers. I also hate that Thief can take down a caster/healer just as easily as a Ninja, yet also stands a chance in other fights (not after a nerf for thief, that's a good class). I love the fact that Ninja has skills like One and Smoke that can so throw off an enemy. I hate that using any other skill with those renders Ninja "too fatigued" to do anything else.

I know my class just fine; unlike some, I've been two combat specs this entire map, Ninja included. I'd say I've spent a lot more time with Ninja in its current state than many have. It's been like 3 months since I specced to it. Most people seem to master in a week and move on. I would not still be a Ninja if I didn't think the class was good. It is good, but it's good in a way that makes it seem more like PvE than anything else. Go into offtopic sometime, and say Ninja is a good PvP class. Chances are even geomancers will laugh at you.
 

spartanman118

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
I don't see where I said anything about opening with eviscerate.

About sneak/blackjack, they both last atleast two minutes (I remember when sneak, broke even when you attacked) so you should have plenty of time to use them both, I can't recall a single battle where it lasted longer than 2 minutes (escpecially as a ninja, you are supposed to kill them quick or get out). With blackjack you can still spam click your left click for it to work more than you think.

Theives confuse doesn't really help in a 1v1, it's more of a support skill (like piggify) to take one person out of the picture for a bit.

Depending on the class, most won't be able to just "pop" an icyaura when they think you are near (if you use one/speed potion before you use it, is best. But I know stamina so you might have to kite them till you have enough for both if you don't have a speed pot).

I think that garrote + kick shouldn't be used unless fighting a healer/caster. It's not for the damage, but for the silence. Maybe a slight buff to garrote (but definitly not 20 damage when you do so much damage with everything else).

Please don't forget that ninjas get another 20 damage skill at level 60.
 

Joka10

Soulsand
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Blackjack gives a message though, so if you want to sneak up on someone, you have to use it out of range where they'll see the message. Most casters have some form of AoE, and if you're trying to through them off with smoke, they see the message and use said AoE to break both smoke and sneak. Silencers are good skills, and really I don't think it is good for Ninja to have two because one can only be barely better than the other without being OP. I think Garrote should be activated like Theivery, where you must sneak up behind them. Then for like 5 seconds, the target is frozen in place and can't do damage (you aren't frozen or unable to damage, but if you move or cause damage other than through the skill, the spell breaks) and takes suffocation damage (a little toned down, though). They can take damage from an outside party, but if the Ninja takes damage, the spell breaks. EscapeArtist is the only way the target can initiate escape. The ninja does not cause too much damage, but, especially if there are others around to beat the stunned person, there is actually a real incentive to go to the trouble of sneaking up on them. I have suggested such a thing before with positive review. Others have suggested similar. It needs tweaking, but it is actually worth 45 levels and sneaking up on someone. And as for Blitz, no one yet knows exactly how that will work. Hopefully it will be good, but that's not certain.
 

Archmage_Lloyd

Soulsand
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
No, Giving ninja better armor is almost like saying lets give a 5 second cd to harmtouch and give DK layhands
 
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