General Balance Concerns Discussion

[Delfofthebla]

I know we have a subforum that contains threads for each individual class, but I find that the team works better when we have a single thread to share and debate balance issues. I would like this thread to be used for that purpose.

Here you should discuss specific class balance issues, and what you believe the reasoning for those issues is. You are all free to debate on the truth to those issues as they are posted.

---------------------------------

Let's say LostSoul did not have any stamina issues. What do you think would happen? I personally think they would be quite the troublesome class, but who really knows. Let's say this is the case, and "I" believe they are too powerful, so I make a post in balance.

Balance Poster A (Me): I believe LostSoul is too strong. My town and I have fought against several of them, and we find that they are too hard to deal with, even with mastered classes. They will initiate the fight with a Fireball, and then kite us with bows. When we get close, they burst us with strike and kick, and then proceed to kite us all over again. There is no way to catch them, and pretty much any class gets beat by them.

Example Poster B: I agree. I do not think they should be able to kite endlessly like that, especially since they are a starter class. I've noticed that they don't really have any stamina issues, and that is likely the reason behind their imbalance. How about we increases their stamina costs?

Example Poster C: Well, how about we lower their base stamina regeneration to 30 (from 50), and then add a stamina cost to Fireball of say, 500?

Example Post B: I like where you're going with that, but with a stamina cost of 500, they won't really be able to do much else... How about setting it to 300?

Example Poster A & C: Sounds good.

(The End)

---------------------------------

I'd like to stress the importance of numbers in the posts that come from now on. Too often we just get vague ideas and vague suggestions with no numbers behind them, and often, numbers are not contested, even when posted. I want this to change.

Both Kainzo and myself have the ability to change numbers on the test server, and it's always possible to play around with them as we need to. Just because we set a number on test, does not mean that the number is finalized. From here on out, we should push for frequent number testing as we push out balance patches. Just lay it out here, and if we get to a relatively settled agreement, tag me and I'll push it to test. I am also in close contact with sirdemonic / Kahzo, so if I'm not watching this forum enough, you can always get one of them to bug me.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I'll start with something simple that I was meaning to do from the start, but never got around to implementing. Is it absolutely necessary? Well, that's for everyone else to decide. I personally believe it needs to be done, but maybe I'm wrong?

I believe Wizard does not have enough attribute pooling from wisdom. As a caster, it should require some base amount of Wisdom in order to be effective, but do to no specific skills scaling off of it, few wizards bother. Additionally, Replenish, while only being 50% of their mana, is plenty for them to actually manage themselves in most fights.

The lack of Wisdom dependency is allowing Wizards to focus on attributes like Endurance and Constitution, while still maintaining a high level of damage. I propose that Replenish scale off of Wisdom, so that the "Glass Cannon" build is less viable for Wizard players.

 

[Sirdemonic3]

i think wizards replenish should have a base of 30% mana back on use, but scales 2% off wisdom point.

 

[look_out]

i think wizards replenish should have a base of 30% mana back on use, but scales 2% off wisdom point.

What do you mean by that.

What I'm getting. The replenish is set at 30% at default wisdom and 2% is added for every wisdom point. If thats what you are saying then this is stronger than it was before. 25 Wisdom would give you a new replenish of 80%. ( i have 25 wisdom in my build already ) So that would seem like a buff to me.

My Change:

Replenish starts with base 50% mana and every wisdom point adds .75%. So with 30 wisdom the replenish is only at 72.5%.

 

[Delfofthebla]

What do you mean by that.

What I'm getting. The replenish is set at 30% at default wisdom and 2% is added for every wisdom point. If thats what you are saying then this is stronger than it was before. 25 Wisdom would give you a new replenish of 80%. ( i have 25 wisdom in my build already ) So that would seem like a buff to me.

My Change:

Replenish starts with base 50% mana and every wisdom point adds .75%. So with 30 wisdom the replenish is only at 72.5%.

Replenish already gives a base of 50%, so like with sirdemonics post, this would result in a straight up-buff. It was 100% during Bastion (except for mystic), however, I placed it at 50% for both classes at the start of Haven, due to the wisdom issue.

If you want a true dependency, you must create harsh numbers.

For instance, a base of 15% with 1.5% per Wisdom. This would result at a very poor skill from the get-go, but with say, 20 wisdom, you would have a 45% replenish. This is lower than the current live version however, even with moderate Wisdom. Is that acceptable, or should it be changed? Is a higher base necessary, or does it require scaling?

The biggest thing is that this change, regardless of the numbers we choose, will likely result in a buff to Druids, as they naturally place more points into Wisdom over everything else. This creates a "flip flop" of what we had in Bastion. Mystics would have the stronger replenish, while a Wizard's would be much weaker.

 

[look_out]

Its not 50% right now.. Its 75%

 

[Delfofthebla]

Its not 50% right now.. Its 75%

Is it? Hmm, coulda sworn I had set that lower. Is 75 something we should be shooting for though? I haven't played Wizard this map, so I can't say I have a firm grasp of their mana situation like I did previously.

 

[Sirdemonic3]

75 is pretty solid, id say u want like 25-30 points to get around 60-70%

 

[BulkPhase]

I like the wisdom thing, they seem to be the only caster class that doesn't need wisdom to sustain a fight.

 

[look_out]

I'll just say this. I only have about 40% mana after a fight. using replenish. That changes depending on the other persons ability to dodge fireballs.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I'll just say this. I only have about 40% mana after a fight. using replenish. That changes depending on the other persons ability to dodge fireballs.

The weakness of Wizards should be their "glass cannon" nature. This applies to their low health and high damage, but also the nature of "one trick pony". They should be relatively spent as far as mana is concerned after a normal fight. Replenish is there to alleviate how much of a burden it can be in standard world PvP. They shouldn't need it every fight, but it should be -required- if they get into a bind. Should it give them another full round of ammo though? I'm not so sure.


Obviously, these things change greatly with attribute placement, but for the standard Wizard builds, I believe this should be the case.

 

[malikdanab]

I know it's counter-balanced by it's long cooldown, but I don't really like replenish in it's current state. It's one of those skills (Like Layhands and Death touch) that feels like a "Get out of jail card." I feel like it should have an actual drawback, but maybe in return you are able to use it more often.
Possible change:

CD reduced to 45
Mana regained 15% + (0.75 * Wis)
3 second warmup and mana is gained after the warmup

While this wouldn't allow them to gain all their mana at once, if they use it often they could potentially have a constant stream of mana

Either way (If you are about to call me an idiot calm down ) I believe that wizards shouldn't be able to completely ignore wisdom without having mana problems.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I know it's counter-balanced by it's long cooldown, but I don't really like replenish in it's current state. It's one of those skills (Like Layhands and Death touch) that feels like a "Get out of jail card." I feel like it should have an actual drawback, but maybe in return you are able to use it more often.
Possible change:

CD reduced to 45
Mana regained 15% + (0.75 * Wis)
3 second warmup and mana is gained after the warmup

While this wouldn't allow them to gain all their mana at once, if they use it often they could potentially have a constant stream of mana

Either way (If you are about to call me an idiot calm down ) I believe that wizards should be able to completely ignore wisdom without having mana problems.

I could see this...but not sure how actual wizards / druids would feel.

 

[malikdanab]

I could see this...but not sir how actual wizards / druids would feel.

People who are bad will be mad since it's no longer a "win button", but the beauty of the change is that, for higher skilled players, it will be a buff since they would effectively be gaining more mana. This is bound to make plenty mad, but I'd like to see everyone's opinion on it.

 

[Sirdemonic3]

I know it's counter-balanced by it's long cooldown, but I don't really like replenish in it's current state. It's one of those skills (Like Layhands and Death touch) that feels like a "Get out of jail card." I feel like it should have an actual drawback, but maybe in return you are able to use it more often.
Possible change:

CD reduced to 45
Mana regained 15% + (0.75 * Wis)
3 second warmup and mana is gained after the warmup

While this wouldn't allow them to gain all their mana at once, if they use it often they could potentially have a constant stream of mana

Either way (If you are about to call me an idiot calm down ) I believe that wizards shouldn't be able to completely ignore wisdom without having mana problems.

i like the idea, but what if it was 30% mana base, same scaling, and 1 min CD?

 

[look_out]

i like the idea, but what if it was 30% mana base, same scaling, and 1 min CD?

I like this better as a wizard. The 15% base is just way to low... That only give 1 or two extra spells early. 30% with .75 scaling with wisdom with 1 min seems fine to me.

 

[malikdanab]

The numbers where just something I made up on the fly
30% + Scaling seems like a reasonable amount for a 1 min. cooldown.

 

[look_out]

Ninja Health:
The number i think ninja hp should have
Starting 680 with 3.75 per level
At 65 they will have 820 hp( with no constitution)

 

[Sirdemonic3]

also feeling a 1.5 sec warmup on replenish, 3 seconds is absurd

 

[malikdanab]

also feeling a 1.5 sec warmup on replenish, 3 seconds is absurd

1.5-2 seconds seems like a good warm-up. Like I said, I just put random numbers