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Dragoon

Joined
May 1, 2011
Likes
189
Location
Canada
#21
Hmmph. The Dragoon has always had this interesting dilemma. Nothing but a Dragoon can catch a Dragoon. As Delf has said, I believe that other classes need to have a greater potential to trap Dragoons than they currently have. If only we had a FrostMage or something :rolleyes:.
The fact is, no one is going to be able to catch a Dragoon, it's what they do. I think what needs to be done is make it so a Dragoon has to commit to a fight. If they run, then they don't get the kill, If they don't run, then whoever has the most skill in the engagement will win the fight.

Now I don't exactly know how to make it so a dragoon has to commit.

Maybe raise the CD of jump, make you have to think more about using jumps.

Possibly you could have it that if a dragoon is CCed in any way, (IE stunned slowed silenced) , jump is put on cooldown. This can give people a way to control a dragoon in a fight. Although this may have come with the cooldown lowered, possibly to two seconds.

This would keep the dragoon's fun, addicting playstyle, but put it at an equal playing field during fights.

Just came up with another option as I was about to press post :p.

What if when you used jump, it was put on a timer, where if you reuse it within ten seconds the CD is raised by another second. This could stack until you got to a ten second cooldown, when it would then reset back to the normal. This would give the dragoon the option to use jump repetitively, or save it until the "secondary cooldown" was over. You could also do this with a stacking stam cost, but the first stam cost would have to be lowered.

I don't know if any of this is even possible
Kainzo

First balance team post :D
 

Delfofthebla

Coder
Tier 4
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Likes
174
Location
United States
#22
The fact is, no one is going to be able to catch a Dragoon, it's what they do. I think what needs to be done is make it so a Dragoon has to commit to a fight. If they run, then they don't get the kill, If they don't run, then whoever has the most skill in the engagement will win the fight.

Now I don't exactly know how to make it so a dragoon has to commit.

Maybe raise the CD of jump, make you have to think more about using jumps.

Possibly you could have it that if a dragoon is CCed in any way, (IE stunned slowed silenced) , jump is put on cooldown. This can give people a way to control a dragoon in a fight. Although this may have come with the cooldown lowered, possibly to two seconds.

This would keep the dragoon's fun, addicting playstyle, but put it at an equal playing field during fights.

Just came up with another option as I was about to press post :p.

What if when you used jump, it was put on a timer, where if you reuse it within ten seconds the CD is raised by another second. This could stack until you got to a ten second cooldown, when it would then reset back to the normal. This would give the dragoon the option to use jump repetitively, or save it until the "secondary cooldown" was over. You could also do this with a stacking stam cost, but the first stam cost would have to be lowered.

I don't know if any of this is even possible
Kainzo

First balance team post :D
The problem with balancing Dragoon right now is that the class is barely even functional. Due to the nocheat plugin having a field day on mobility based skills, the player is being rubberbanded on damn near 70% of his jumps. Comboing jump with superjump will rubberband you 95% of the time as well. Overall, it's unplayable. Until the nocheat plugin is fixed, I do not think "nerfing" their mobility skills is a good idea.

Mechanically speaking, I don't think what you describe is possible. I think you'd have to add a lot of functionality to the Heroes plugin to allow it to control that kind of stuff. Maybe I'm wrong here, but from what I've seen coding the new Runeblade, there doesn't appear to be a way to alter cooldowns of specific skills on specific players at any given point.

Even with all that said, I'm not sure I even like the idea. The very idea of "forcing them to commit" will destroy the class. Yes, it's really frustrating when a Dragoon swoops in, has his way with someone, and then leaves, but there are better ways to address this issue. Increasing cooldowns and preventing them from using jump after being CC'd will make it insanely difficult for the dragoon to even catch other players, and it would make travel time a lot crappier, let alone make it harder to run away.

While I think you have some interesting ideas here, I just don't know that they're the right direction to go. I still think that altering other classes in a way to make it harder for the Dragoon to escape is the better solution.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Likes
7,539
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
#23
We should probably handle Jump differently - usuable only in no-combat? increase the height you can jump, etc.

There's a lot we can do here. The primary issue is 90% of dragoons only use jump and not the other abilities.
 
Joined
May 1, 2011
Likes
189
Location
Canada
#24
We should probably handle Jump differently - usuable only in no-combat? increase the height you can jump, etc.

There's a lot we can do here. The primary issue is 90% of dragoons only use jump and not the other abilities.
I don't think making it completely unusable in combat is the way to go. I've played a lot of dragoon, and I do agree, jump is usable for anything, and it does take away from the gameplay a bit. Dragoon does have a lot of good skills in its arsenal, and using them all properly separates the good dragons from the bad, but I think there are a few too many people speced dragoon for nothing Other than jump. I think the main problem, is you can butcher 2 out of 5 jumps, and still get away, we need to punish people some how for messing up their jumps.
 

Delfofthebla

Coder
Tier 4
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Likes
174
Location
United States
#25
We should probably handle Jump differently - usuable only in no-combat? increase the height you can jump, etc.

There's a lot we can do here. The primary issue is 90% of dragoons only use jump and not the other abilities.
I don't think making it completely unusable in combat is the way to go. I've played a lot of dragoon, and I do agree, jump is usable for anything, and it does take away from the gameplay a bit. Dragoon does have a lot of good skills in its arsenal, and using them all properly separates the good dragons from the bad, but I think there are a few too many people speced dragoon for nothing Other than jump. I think the main problem, is you can butcher 2 out of 5 jumps, and still get away, we need to punish people some how for messing up their jumps.
I really don't like the idea of making jump only usable in combat. This makes it nothing more than a "traveling" ability, and it's not even a good one at that. This is a really dangerous suggestion that will destroy the enjoyment of the class for all players.

I also don't agree that Dragoons do not use other skills.

I'm a Dragoon player, 5 of my townies play the class, and I also have fought a good 10+ dragoon players. They definitely use their skills.

Jump is awesome.
Superjump is really cool.
Strike is amazing.
Impale is pretty good.
Cleave is awesome (But only because it's broken right now and going through armor)
Spear is strong as hell.
Tremor is an amazing teamfight ability.

Disarm and bash are good too.

Overall, the lineup of Dragoon skills is really great, and players use them all for like every fight.

Preventing jump in combat is not the solution.
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Likes
448
Location
USA
#26
We should probably handle Jump differently - usuable only in no-combat? increase the height you can jump, etc.

There's a lot we can do here. The primary issue is 90% of dragoons only use jump and not the other abilities.
Is it possible to decrease the length of the jump, or is there a set value it's set at?
 
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Likes
214
#27
I'd like to bring dragoon discussion back to the light. Firstly, I have to say it, I think they are WAY OP. The concept of a goon is a very mobile/ranged warrior. While this in itself is fine, there are some major problems
  • 1: Dragoon's Melee Damage
Currently, Dragoon is tied with Runeblade/Bard at highest base melee damage of 60. I understand that this is supposed to be a damage class, but when it's excelling all other classes and rogues, there is a problem.
For reference-

Berserker: 46
Dreadknight: 46
Paladin: 48
Dragoon: 60

With a huge 12 points higher than paladin ( the second highest melee warrior) I believe goons damage needs to be lowered.

To keep it inline with other warriors I suggest it to be decreased to 50 damage.
  • 2: Dragoon's Tremor
Tremor is a very annoying skill atm. It has a very low CD of 9 and a very strong knock-back. Combined with players tendencies to get in high places with goons, it creates an incredible combo. In short, due to tremor, it's near impossible to get to where a goon is perching. To help relieve it's spam-able nature, I suggest it's CD is increased to 15 seconds. To further my crusade on making attributes matter :p I suggest the base knock-back on tremor to be reduced, but have it also scale with agility.

  • 3: Dragoon's Armor Weight.
As a such mobile class, you'd think that dragoon would be lighter. Currently, a dragoon has a base equipment weight of 52.5. As the most mobile of the warriors I believe it should have the weakest armor. This would play more into it's hit-n-run nature.
For reference-

Berserker: 49.75
Dragoon: 52.5
Dreadknight: 53.75
Paladin: 60

I believe that it's base weight should be the lowest of the warriors to match it's highest dmg. Something like 47.5 seems reasonable.

  • 4: Dragoon's Super Jump
I'm not even going to be nice here. I HATE this skill. And from what I've read in O chat, Kainzo hates the skill too. Besides the obvious removal of the skill, if it where to stay I have a simple fix. Don't let goons use this in combat. Nothing is worse then when you are about to kill a goon and the Super Jump to safety. Another change would to increase the warm up to 2.0 - 2.5 seconds. Actually make it have a good charging times, so even if the goon runs away and gets of timer, you have a chance to stop them.

This concludes my suggestion/rant. I'd like to thank everyone in advance for reading my post and hopefully taking it into consideration. I'm not saying that all these changes should be implemented (Nor to the exact degree as specified), but I hope it can be a basis to some much need changes.

Malikdanab - Balance Spokesmen of the People
 
Joined
May 15, 2014
Likes
33
Location
New York City
#29
I know I'm gonna get some hate for this, but it's time to being dragoons immense power back to light

I don't usually like to comment on classes and their strengths, mostly because I have faith in the balance teams fair judgement. However, dragoon is beginning to become a huge issue like it once did before.

Dragoon has many things going for it
Mobility
Huge damage
Armor piercing
Tankiness
CC
and a disarm!

I've seen some things that were quite disturbing on the server recently. A single dragoon taking out groups of enemies in just a few seconds. While this could be debated to say that the groups were bad and such, but even still no class should be able to kill a group of lvl 30+.

On top of this, dragoon is also considered the top 1v1 class, which is true too! It can take out groups in a sweep, and single targets in a sweep.
The low cd high distance jump makes it impossible to outrun the dragoon
The tankiness of the dragoon makes it insanely hard to kill
The base damage and ability damage makes sure you die quick
Think you're safe under a lot of armor? think again, armor piercing.

My recommendations: (Each are individual)
I would skip this part, i'm not the best at making class recommendations but i'll give it a shot anyway
- The removal of disarm, I asked a dragoon to fight without disarm and he did just fine!
- Removing the armor piercing on piercingstrike, gives warriors a chance to beat this class
- Increase the cd on jump, or decrease the distance. There is no reason for a tanky class like dragoon to have the best mobility in the game.
- Remove the pull on spear. The class has a crazy long distance jump already! I would say remove the slow too but thats overkill (Is it?)
- Increase stamina costs across the board.

Those are my thoughts, feel free to shoot everything down with justification, I can be ignorant at times. Thank you for reading and considering this post.
 

LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Tier 8
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Likes
358
#30
I don't think taking away mobility is the way to go, that's what makes a dragoon a dragoon.
They also had pretty bad stamina issues before their costs were lowered.

Cut the pull on spear and yank disarm.
I feel taking the pull will help lessen a goons control in a 1v1, and the removal of disarm stops them from shutting down someone in a 1v1 or group fight.

As with J2,I can be ignorant of some classes. Never played goon, only played against or with them.
 
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Likes
298
#31
I know I'm gonna get some hate for this, but it's time to being dragoons immense power back to light

I don't usually like to comment on classes and their strengths, mostly because I have faith in the balance teams fair judgement. However, dragoon is beginning to become a huge issue like it once did before.

Dragoon has many things going for it
Mobility
Huge damage
Armor piercing
Tankiness
CC
and a disarm!

I've seen some things that were quite disturbing on the server recently. A single dragoon taking out groups of enemies in just a few seconds. While this could be debated to say that the groups were bad and such, but even still no class should be able to kill a group of lvl 30+.

On top of this, dragoon is also considered the top 1v1 class, which is true too! It can take out groups in a sweep, and single targets in a sweep.
The low cd high distance jump makes it impossible to outrun the dragoon
The tankiness of the dragoon makes it insanely hard to kill
The base damage and ability damage makes sure you die quick
Think you're safe under a lot of armor? think again, armor piercing.

My recommendations: (Each are individual)
I would skip this part, i'm not the best at making class recommendations but i'll give it a shot anyway
- The removal of disarm, I asked a dragoon to fight without disarm and he did just fine!
- Removing the armor piercing on piercingstrike, gives warriors a chance to beat this class
- Increase the cd on jump, or decrease the distance. There is no reason for a tanky class like dragoon to have the best mobility in the game.
- Remove the pull on spear. The class has a crazy long distance jump already! I would say remove the slow too but thats overkill (Is it?)
- Increase stamina costs across the board.

Those are my thoughts, feel free to shoot everything down with justification, I can be ignorant at times. Thank you for reading and considering this post.
First, don't doubt yourself on your reasoning for bringing stuff up- you're on the balance team for a reason and your concerns can also represent the issues non-balance members have been expressing in game that you have picked up.

Yes- dragoon seems to be in a very strong position right now, but that's because of a couple things.

1. The "pvp meta" at this point in the map is really solo/gankish, an environment made for classes like ninja, runeblade, and dragoon. Normally towards the early parts of each map, where team fights are more common, classes like dragoon are not really considered strong.

2. As you said, nobody really good plays anymore. A half decent caster, berserker, samurai, or dreadknight, or Druid could destroy a dragoon. While dragoon seems to have a lot of mobility and anti-kite abilities, fighting a class like wizard, necromancer, or Druid will drive them crazy. Yes they have jump and spear, but those really only allow the dragoon to get in 2-3 left clicks and maybe a strike on their target before they outrun them; and due to the nature of caster's magic damage, the goon won't last very long.

On paper, disregarding skill, dragoon should actually lose to all the other warriors, possibly excluding paladin if they do not layhands. Disarm/piercing strike are their only real tools against other warriors, but the sheer amount of damage a berserker, dreadknight, and samurai can do to the goon counteracts them.

Overall, I can maybe agree to a 2-3 left click damage reduction on survival due to the massive amount of sharpness weapons available, and possibly have dragoon lose their iron chestplate and go back to chain; again because of the large amount of protection/health items out there.
 
Joined
May 15, 2014
Likes
33
Location
New York City
#32
First, don't doubt yourself on your reasoning for bringing stuff up- you're on the balance team for a reason and your concerns can also represent the issues non-balance members have been expressing in game that you have picked up.

Yes- dragoon seems to be in a very strong position right now, but that's because of a couple things.

1. The "pvp meta" at this point in the map is really solo/gankish, an environment made for classes like ninja, runeblade, and dragoon. Normally towards the early parts of each map, where team fights are more common, classes like dragoon are not really considered strong.

2. As you said, nobody really good plays anymore. A half decent caster, berserker, samurai, or dreadknight, or Druid could destroy a dragoon. While dragoon seems to have a lot of mobility and anti-kite abilities, fighting a class like wizard, necromancer, or Druid will drive them crazy. Yes they have jump and spear, but those really only allow the dragoon to get in 2-3 left clicks and maybe a strike on their target before they outrun them; and due to the nature of caster's magic damage, the goon won't last very long.

On paper, disregarding skill, dragoon should actually lose to all the other warriors, possibly excluding paladin if they do not layhands. Disarm/piercing strike are their only real tools against other warriors, but the sheer amount of damage a berserker, dreadknight, and samurai can do to the goon counteracts them.

Overall, I can maybe agree to a 2-3 left click damage reduction on survival due to the massive amount of sharpness weapons available, and possibly have dragoon lose their iron chestplate and go back to chain; again because of the large amount of protection/health items out there.
I agree with that, let me know when/if the changes have been added. I'll put em on wiki
 

0xNaomi

Wiki Team
Coder
Balance Team
Tier 6
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Likes
120
#33
Alright, so after some fun run-ins with Dragoons and letting the salt cool off, I noticed something: Tremor knocks back really far.
As a curiosity, I checked it against WindGale, then ForcePush, and eventually all the skills that do knockback (that I could immediately find).

These are the results:
Code:
Ashura: Single Target, 0.75 + 0.0375/Str (1.875 @ 30Str)
DoomstarRequiem: AOE, 1.0 (No Scaling)
ExplosiveShot: AOE, 1.1 (No Scaling)
Fireblast: AOE, 1.2 (No Scaling)
ForcePush: Single Target, 0.6 + 0.06/Int (2.8 @ 30Int)
ForcePull: Single Target, 1.0 (No Scaling)
IronFist: AOE, 0.6 + .01/Int (0.9 @ 30Int)
TornadoKick: AOE, 0.4 + 0.015/Int (.85 @ 30Int)
Toss: Single Target, 1.0 + 0.02/Str (1.6 @ 30Str)
Tremor: AOE, 2.8 (No Scaling)
WindGale: AOE, 0.45 + 0.045/Wis (1.8 @ 30Wis)
For reference, this number is the "horizontal push power" config node for all these abilities, which is a velocity rather than a set amount of blocks.
Thus, the values can't be compared absolutely, but they can at least be compared relative to each other.

Vertical power is ignored for the sake of this; I could add it if someone felt it was necessary but I don't currently.

Tremor has a 2.8 push power, AOE, with no scaling to even set it.
The only other push, at all, with 2.8 power is ForcePush, which is the basis skill for pretty much all of these, and is single target.
After 2.8, the highest value is 1.875, which is a large difference.

I feel we should adjust Tremor to at least 1.8, if not lower, to be in line with other abilities.
"If not lower" is specified because it is a full AOE around the user, rather than a directional one.

Thoughts? Agreements? Arguments? Let me hear it.
 
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