Dragoon

[leftovers5]

For Dragoon discussion.

 

[c12095]

I think we need to take a look at Dragoon. The way their currently designed, they can't really stand toe to toe vs almost any class. I understand their heavy mobility, but a hit and run class does no good when both sides can heal equally as fast. I'm going to be brainstorming some possible changes to make this class more appealing in other fields than the fact they can't be caught.

Edit: As an explanation I believe Dragoons are bruisers and need to be adjusted to fit that role.

 

[macura]

I think we need to take a look at Dragoon. The way their currently designed, they can't really stand toe to toe vs almost any class. I understand their heavy mobility, but a hit and run class does no good when both sides can heal equally as fast. I'm going to be brainstorming some possible changes to make this class more appealing in other fields than the fact they can't be caught.

Edit: As an explanation I believe Dragoons are bruisers and need to be adjusted to fit that role.

Bruiser like a DK but instead of damage and heals from dots, damage from melee and physical skills?

 

[c12095]

Bruiser like a DK but instead of damage and heals from dots, damage from melee and physical skills?

Kinda, I spent a few hours making notes trying to find a balance for when fighting Melee or Range to keep it fair. I think I found a good balance, I'll post it when I get home and can type it all out. What do you think of the idea?

 

[macura]

Kinda, I spent a few hours making notes trying to find a balance for when fighting Melee or Range to keep it fair. I think I found a good balance, I'll post it when I get home and can type it all out. What do you think of the idea?

I think it would be pretty cool, almost like when you are fighting a heavy boss fight. The boss has mobility such as being able to jump around due to its strength, but it is not flying all over the place. While at the same time the boss can deal some pretty heavy damage.

 

[c12095]

Ok, well here goes a long post following my notes today about how I believe we can fix Dragoon.

Firstly, some facts.

Dragoons have the third highest Health, at 1025.

Dragoons have the second highest Warrior Damage, at 76 (Diamond).

Dragoons have Extremely high Mobility

They lack any sort of "Fear Presence" during a fight.

They have High CC

Their Stamina cost are far too high to be successful.

Stamina Cost​

​

Jump - 6/20 (3) Stamina per use. 4 CD​

​

Bash - 6/20 (3) Stamina per use. 4 CD​

​

Disarm - 8/20 (4) Stamina per use. 10 CD​

​

Impale - 8/20 (4) Stamina per use. 76 damage Affected via armor 10 CD​

​

Spear - 6/20 (4.5) Stamina per use. 82 damage affected via armor 10 CD​

​

Tremor - 10/20 (5) Stamina per use. 95 damage affected via armor 7 CD​

​

Superjump - 10/20 (5) Stamina per use. 10 CD​

​

Damages​

​

Bash - 95 Damage, affected by armor.​

​

Impale - 76 Damage, affected by armor.​

​

Spear - 82 Damage, affected by armor.​

​

Tremor - 95 Damage, affected by armor.​

​

Cooldowns​

​

Jump - 5 second CD​

​

Bash - 4 second CD​

​

Disarm - 10 second CD​

​

Impale - 10 second CD​

​

Spear - 10 second CD​

​

Tremor - 7 second CD​

​

Superjump - 10 second CD​

​

How can we fix this?​

​

We need to adjust Dragoon to have a much stronger presence in a fight, other than "Oh, hit the Dragoon till they run". However, we have to keep a balance between their Mobility and Casters/Healers, who would be greatly affected by Dragoon Buffs.​

​

*Keep in mind, these changes are dependent on all of the changes together, don't take them as one*​

​

Their Health is currently 1025, I think if we lower it to around 980-1000 it would flow more with these changes.​

​

Their Damage is 76, and as the second highest Warrior Damage they are 16 points behind Samurai, the leader in damage. I think we need to increase it somewhere around 82-85 damage.​

​

Spell Changes​

​

Jump - Raise the CD to 8-10 seconds, lower the Stamina cost to 4/20 (2) Stamina.​

​

Bash - Lower the Stamina cost to 6/20 (3) Stamina.​

​

Impale - Lower the Stamina cost to 6/20 (3) Stamina, increase the Slow Duration from 2 seconds to 4, leaving it slightly lower then a Empathy slow. Increase its damage to 100 and make it unaffected by armor. ​

​

Spear - Increase the Stamina cost to 7/20 (3.5) Stamina. Put the damage at 80 unaffected by armor. Either leave, or raise the CD from 10 to 12 seconds.​

​

Tremor - Lower the Stamina cost to 8/20 (4) Stamina. Increase the damage to 90-100 unaffected by armor. Increase the CD from 7 to 12-15.​

​

Superjump - Lower the Stamina cost to 10/20 (5) Stamina. Add a 1 second Warm-up, and increase the CD to 15 seconds.​

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[macura]

Ok, well here goes a long post following my notes today about how I believe we can fix Dragoon.

Firstly, some facts.

Dragoons have the third highest Health, at 1025.

Dragoons have the second highest Warrior Damage, at 76 (Diamond).

Dragoons have Extremely high Mobility

They lack any sort of "Fear Presence" during a fight.

They have High CC

Their Stamina cost are far too high to be successful.

Stamina Cost​

​

Jump - 7/20 (3.5) Stamina per use. 4 CD​

​

Bash - 7/20 (3.5) Stamina per use. 4 CD​

​

Disarm - 9/20 (4.5) Stamina per use. 10 CD​

​

Impale - 9/20 (4.5) Stamina per use. 76 damage Affected via armor 10 CD​

​

Spear - 6/20 (4.5) Stamina per use. 82 damage affected via armor 10 CD​

​

Tremor - 11/20 (5.5) Stamina per use. 95 damage affected via armor 7 CD​

​

Superjump - 11/20 (5.5) Stamina per use. 10 CD​

​

Damages​

​

Bash - 95 Damage, affected by armor.​

​

Impale - 76 Damage, affected by armor.​

​

Spear - 82 Damage, affected by armor.​

​

Tremor - 95 Damage, affected by armor.​

​

Cooldowns​

​

Jump - 4 second CD​

​

Bash - 4 second CD​

​

Disarm - 10 second CD​

​

Impale - 10 second CD​

​

Spear - 10 second CD​

​

Tremor - 7 second CD​

​

Superjump - 10 second CD​

​

How can we fix this?​

​

We need to adjust Dragoon to have a much stronger presence in a fight, other than "Oh, hit the Dragoon till they run". However, we have to keep a balance between their Mobility and Casters/Healers, who would be greatly affected by Dragoon Buffs.​

​

*Keep in mind, these changes are dependent on all of the changes together, don't take them as one*​

​

Their Health is currently 1025, I think if we lower it to around 980-1000 it would flow more with these changes.​

​

Their Damage is 76, and as the second highest Warrior Damage they are 16 points behind Samurai, the leader in damage. I think we need to increase it somewhere around 82-85 damage.​

​

Spell Changes​

​

Jump - Raise the CD to 8-10 seconds, lower the Stamina cost to 4/20 (2) Stamina.​

​

Bash - Lower the Stamina cost to 6/20 (3) Stamina.​

​

Impale - Lower the Stamina cost to 6/20 (3) Stamina, increase the Slow Duration from 2 seconds to 4, leaving it slightly lower then a Empathy slow. Increase its damage to 100 and make it unaffected by armor. ​

​

Spear - Increase the Stamina cost to 7/20 (3.5) Stamina. Put the damage at 80 unaffected by armor. Either leave, or raise the CD from 10 to 12 seconds.​

​

Tremor - Lower the Stamina cost to 8/20 (4) Stamina. Increase the damage to 90-100 unaffected by armor. Increase the CD from 7 to 12-15.​

​

Superjump - Lower the Stamina cost to 10/20 (5) Stamina. Add a 1 second Warm-up, and increase the CD to 15 seconds.​

​

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This would be pretty cool, because at the moment dragoons can only really tank damage or run away. Maybe a slightly higher cd on spear so that dragoon doesn't destroy casters but other than that i like it.

 

[faredX]

I agree to increase the cooldown on jump as how frustrating it is when a dragoon just jumps away to eat some bread or either just flee from a battle.

 

[c12095]

Kainzo

Take a look when you got some spare time.

 

[Kainzo]

c12095
Some of those numbers you posted are just plain wrong.

Here's the updated info in case you need it - fix what you can about your post and I'll re-read it.

name: Dragoon
permitted-skills:
    Potion:
        level: 1
    Taunt:
        level: 1
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 5000
        stamina: 7
    Disarm:
        level: 1
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 10000
        stamina: 8
    Bash:
        level: 1
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 4000
        stamina: 6
    Strike:
        level: 1
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 6000
        stamina: 4
    Jump:
        level: 10
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 5000
        stamina: 6
    Cleave:
        level: 20
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 6000
        weapons:
        - WOOD_SPADE
        - STONE_SPADE
        - GOLD_SPADE
        - DIAMOND_SPADE
        - IRON_SPADE
        stamina: 7
    Tumble:
        level: 25
    Impale:
        level: 35
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 10000
        stamina: 8
    Spear:
        level: 45
        mana: 5
        cooldown: 10000
        stamina: 6
    SuperJump:
        level: 55
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 10000
        stamina: 10
    Tremor:
        level: 60
        mana: 20
        cooldown: 7000
        stamina: 10
item-damage:
    Wood_Spade: 23
    Stone_Spade: 31
    Iron_Spade: 36
    Diamond_Spade: 43
    Gold_Spade: 48
item-damage-level:
    Wood_Spade: 0.2
    Stone_Spade: 0.35
    Iron_Spade: 0.45
    Diamond_Spade: 0.55
    Gold_Spade: 0.65
base-max-health: 760
mana-regen: 5
max-health-per-level: 4.5
expLoss: 0.06
wildcard-permission: true
max-level: 60
recipes: [ default ]

 

[c12095]

Kainzo

I just checked on the test server again, my numbers are correct. Not sure why its different then what you posted, but it is.

 

[c12095]

c12095
Some of those numbers you posted are just plain wrong.

Here's the updated info in case you need it - fix what you can about your post and I'll re-read it.

name: Dragoon
permitted-skills:
    Potion:
        level: 1
    Taunt:
        level: 1
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 5000
        stamina: 7
    Disarm:
        level: 1
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 10000
        stamina: 8
    Bash:
        level: 1
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 4000
        stamina: 6
    Strike:
        level: 1
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 6000
        stamina: 4
    Jump:
        level: 10
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 5000
        stamina: 6
    Cleave:
        level: 20
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 6000
        weapons:
        - WOOD_SPADE
        - STONE_SPADE
        - GOLD_SPADE
        - DIAMOND_SPADE
        - IRON_SPADE
        stamina: 7
    Tumble:
        level: 25
    Impale:
        level: 35
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 10000
        stamina: 8
    Spear:
        level: 45
        mana: 5
        cooldown: 10000
        stamina: 6
    SuperJump:
        level: 55
        mana: 0
        cooldown: 10000
        stamina: 10
    Tremor:
        level: 60
        mana: 20
        cooldown: 7000
        stamina: 10
item-damage:
    Wood_Spade: 23
    Stone_Spade: 31
    Iron_Spade: 36
    Diamond_Spade: 43
    Gold_Spade: 48
item-damage-level:
    Wood_Spade: 0.2
    Stone_Spade: 0.35
    Iron_Spade: 0.45
    Diamond_Spade: 0.55
    Gold_Spade: 0.65
base-max-health: 760
mana-regen: 5
max-health-per-level: 4.5
expLoss: 0.06
wildcard-permission: true
max-level: 60
recipes: [ default ]

Ok, updated the Stam cost to account for the -1.

 

[TheMrLief]

I agree to increase the cooldown on jump as how frustrating it is when a dragoon just jumps away to eat some bread or either just flee from a battle. A warm up would make a nice touch to em.

A warm up on jump would make them complete garbage.

 

[c12095]

A warm up on jump would make them complete garbage.

Yea, a warm-up would kill jump. Its hard enough to aim for most players as is.

 

[Kainzo]

Just to note - all the files on test are now clones of live

 

[leftovers5]

Kainzo - is it possible to add damage to Jump that takes effect in an AoE manner X seconds after the skill is triggered?

 

[Kainzo]

sure but i dont think thats a good idea

 

[Licksterboy]

I'm not sure if anyone will agree with me, but my town and I have been talking and we seem to be able to agree on the fact that dragoon has a huge advantage over many classes. Mostly because they can escape easily by using jump, heal, then jump back to pvp once more.

I suggest lowering their spade output damage from 76 to 70 or something along the lines of reducing their damage output. Almost every one of their skills, bash, spear, tremor, impale, dish out a lot of damage when used together. In addition, two of their skills slow the target and have another skill to catch up to a target.

The status of dragoons aren't bad at the moment, but I feel that if dragoon is played correctly, it is extremely strong, sometimes, a bit too strong. Thoughts?

 

[Delfofthebla]

I'm not sure if anyone will agree with me, but my town and I have been talking and we seem to be able to agree on the fact that dragoon has a huge advantage over many classes. Mostly because they can escape easily by using jump, heal, then jump back to pvp once more.

I suggest lowering their spade output damage from 76 to 70 or something along the lines of reducing their damage output. Almost every one of their skills, bash, spear, tremor, impale, dish out a lot of damage when used together. In addition, two of their skills slow the target and have another skill to catch up to a target.

The status of dragoons aren't bad at the moment, but I feel that if dragoon is played correctly, it is extremely strong, sometimes, a bit too strong. Thoughts?

I agree that Dragoon is one of the stronger classes in the game right now, but i do not believe their damage is the issue. It is still very sub-par in teamfights, and assuming that two evenly matched players were to go "head to head", the dragoon would lose if he did not incorporate some sort of higher level strategy. I don't think lowering their damage is the solution.


Dragoon is a hard one to balance in terms of "fairness" and "viability". Their mobility is what makes them the class that they are--without it, they are a very boring warrior. The problem is that their mobility grants them too much control over a fight. As you said, they can easily escape, heal up, and come back. However, just as they can heal, so can you. The real issue is that you can keep this in a perpetual loop until the Dragoon has finally claimed victory as his own. There isn't any way for the player to escape his control, and that is the issue with dragoon.

If you really want to stop a Dragoon, get your town a Necromancer. The Necro is easily the hardest counter to the class.

Honestly, I think the best solution is not to change dragoon, but change other classes. Perhaps giving one or two more classes the ability to properly hinder the dragoon is what's needed, rather than changing him directly.

I'll elaborate more on this in that thread later.

 

[leftovers5]

Hmmph. The Dragoon has always had this interesting dilemma. Nothing but a Dragoon can catch a Dragoon. As Delf has said, I believe that other classes need to have a greater potential to trap Dragoons than they currently have. If only we had a FrostMage or something .