Suggestion [Dragoon] Superjump; Out of combat ability?

[Keache]

DISCLAIMER!!!!
IN THIS POST I AM ASSUMING JUMP IS NOT GETTING FUCKED OVER BY NOCHEAT

So, I've been mulling over this for a little while now and personally I've been a little conflicted over pitching this idea. First and foremost, though, I need to credit Vongard and Liqwids and a couple other members of Legacy for this idea.

Alrighty, so I've heard a LOT of complaints about the Dragoon's ability to "get out of jail free" at any time. I've heard some suggestions about adding a warm-up, but I don't believe that will truly alleviate the problem, especially considering how short of a cooldown superjump has (around 10 seconds). Having said that, here's the current state of dragoon from my perspective.

Dragoon has the highest mobility of any class right now. This gives them numerous advantages, the most prevalent one being that when engaging a dragoon, you must either kill them or fend them off. You cannot escape a dragoon, for their ability to chase you down is unrivaled. Unfortunately, dragoons in their current state also deal a very high amount of damage, especially considering what they do. Having said that, say you manage to severely wound a dragoon. Unless you have some sort of lockdown or long-duration silencing ability, you can almost guarantee that they will escape due to superjump.

While I'd prefer relegating dragoon to more of a support oriented class (decreasing their damage but allowing them to slow/debuff/etc people with their mobility. Logic behind this is that given the ability to either run away easily or chase someone down easily you are then able to cripple or harry someone in order to allow your group to catch up and take them down, but not necessarily slaughtering them yourself. But, I digress.), they are currently designed to be fighters. Having said that, their beefiness and their damage makes it easy to kill and not get killed. Therefor, I propose making Superjump an out of combat ability. This accomplishes a couple things;

The first thing this would accomplish is reducing the dragoon's mobility to the point where they can press a button and instantly survive anything, but can still escape provided they use jump correctly and their adversaries don't have some sort of lockdown or silence. They still have their ability to chase people, but again they have to be smarter. The second thing this accomplishes is that it gives everyone else more of a fighting chance. It won't be a matter of "Oh, I'd better get this dragoon low and make him run away so that I can run away", and will instead be a matter of "If I can keep my dots on this guy and if I can chase him down, I can actually kill him for once!" Thirdly, it will still allow dragoons to use their "get out of jail free card" if their enemies are doing a poor job of chasing them down. Because by then, of course they deserve the ability to get away more easily.

Delfofthebla , I remember going over this with you a little bit verbally, but having presented my case like this, what do you think? Also dragoons, community, looking for thoughts and feedback. Thanks!

~Keache

 

[Zaihn]

I think the balancing of dragoon is being worked on at the moment. Right now their combination of high mobility, high damage, and high tankiness is leaving them somewhat broken in my opinion. Dragoon has always been based around high mobility so I'd like to see a rebalance on the level of armor/hp or damage they have.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

I really like the idea. A dragoon can still use Jump to watch the seconds tick off the combat timer if hes low on health. To see a dragoon at 1 heart and then blasted into the air like he's a space monkey is and always has been silly.

 

[Delfofthebla]

While I entirely agree with your points, I do not wish to make SuperJump an "out of combat" ability. I believe this will make the class less enjoyable, and I think that it is a very lazy way to fix the issue.

I am of the opinion that if abilities are too powerful in combat, they should be reworked to accommodate the fact rather than sticking a bandaid on the problem. I want the ability to work in and out of combat, but not give them a 100% get out of jail free card in the process. While I know that you said you are assuming nocheat isn't interfering with the ability, the fact of the matter is, it does. This has unfortunately become a consistent factor for all velocity based abilities, and cannot be ignored. So while yes, SuperJump is technically a "get out of jail free card", it doesn't have a 100% success rate, and so I have to consider that as a balance factor when altering the ability. I hate doing that, but I really feel as though I have to. Assuming the nocheat issues can be resolved, we can start moving towards legitimate balancing of these types of abilities.

However, my priority with Dragoon right now is not their escape, but their damage output, as Zaihn has stated. The next update will be focused on toning that down a bit.

The other changes in store should provide more counters to the class's mobility, and will hopefully provide tools to prevent a dragoon from having free reign over the rest of the classes.

 

[Dreamcycler]

Why make Superjump out of combat when you can just DoT them, have em die midair and watch their items fall from the sky?

 

[monkeyfatzer]

DISCLAIMER!!!!
IN THIS POST I AM ASSUMING JUMP IS NOT GETTING FUCKED OVER BY NOCHEAT

So, I've been mulling over this for a little while now and personally I've been a little conflicted over pitching this idea. First and foremost, though, I need to credit Vongard and Liqwids and a couple other members of Legacy for this idea.

Alrighty, so I've heard a LOT of complaints about the Dragoon's ability to "get out of jail free" at any time. I've heard some suggestions about adding a warm-up, but I don't believe that will truly alleviate the problem, especially considering how short of a cooldown superjump has (around 10 seconds). Having said that, here's the current state of dragoon from my perspective.

Dragoon has the highest mobility of any class right now. This gives them numerous advantages, the most prevalent one being that when engaging a dragoon, you must either kill them or fend them off. You cannot escape a dragoon, for their ability to chase you down is unrivaled. Unfortunately, dragoons in their current state also deal a very high amount of damage, especially considering what they do. Having said that, say you manage to severely wound a dragoon. Unless you have some sort of lockdown or long-duration silencing ability, you can almost guarantee that they will escape due to superjump.

While I'd prefer relegating dragoon to more of a support oriented class (decreasing their damage but allowing them to slow/debuff/etc people with their mobility. Logic behind this is that given the ability to either run away easily or chase someone down easily you are then able to cripple or harry someone in order to allow your group to catch up and take them down, but not necessarily slaughtering them yourself. But, I digress.), they are currently designed to be fighters. Having said that, their beefiness and their damage makes it easy to kill and not get killed. Therefor, I propose making Superjump an out of combat ability. This accomplishes a couple things;

The first thing this would accomplish is reducing the dragoon's mobility to the point where they can press a button and instantly survive anything, but can still escape provided they use jump correctly and their adversaries don't have some sort of lockdown or silence. They still have their ability to chase people, but again they have to be smarter. The second thing this accomplishes is that it gives everyone else more of a fighting chance. It won't be a matter of "Oh, I'd better get this dragoon low and make him run away so that I can run away", and will instead be a matter of "If I can keep my dots on this guy and if I can chase him down, I can actually kill him for once!" Thirdly, it will still allow dragoons to use their "get out of jail free card" if their enemies are doing a poor job of chasing them down. Because by then, of course they deserve the ability to get away more easily.

Delfofthebla , I remember going over this with you a little bit verbally, but having presented my case like this, what do you think? Also dragoons, community, looking for thoughts and feedback. Thanks!

~Keache

Is this about me running from you guys at legacy and superjumping on to the herogate? >.>

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

While I know that you said you are assuming nocheat isn't interfering with the ability, the fact of the matter is, it does. This has unfortunately become a consistent factor for all velocity based abilities, and cannot be ignored. So while yes, SuperJump is technically a "get out of jail free card", it doesn't have a 100% success rate, and so I have to consider that as a balance factor when altering the ability. I hate doing that, but I really feel as though I have to. Assuming the nocheat issues can be resolved, we can start moving towards legitimate balancing of these types of abilities.

I'll remember this line next time you take a look at Disciple!

 

[Keache]

Is this about me running from you guys at legacy and superjumping on to the herogate? >.>

That's a trait not unique to you

 

[Keache]

I'll remember this line next time you take a look at Disciple!

The ulterior motive of this thread was to rope Delf into unnecessarily buffing Disciple. Mission accomplished.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

The ulterior motive of this thread was to rope Delf into unnecessarily buffing Disciple. Mission accomplished.

Nope. I've been saying since the start of the map (Disciple is fun/good, when Forcepush works). In response, I'd get a "that's life" and carry on. Now that apparently it's become evident that Dragoon has to be buffed in certain areas because NoCheat plays a factor in a Dragoon's Jump/SuperJump skills, the same logic has to be placed on Disciple, no?

Whether that's all been taken into consideration already is not for me to know, but if one class gets buffed because a plugin is derpy a percentage of the time, shouldn't all classes get a bit of a buff if it's affected as well?

 

[Keache]

Nope. I've been saying since the start of the map (Disciple is fun/good, when Forcepush works). In response, I'd get a "that's life" and carry on. Now that apparently it's become evident that Dragoon has to be buffed in certain areas because NoCheat plays a factor in a Dragoon's Jump/SuperJump skills, the same logic has to be placed on Disciple, no?

Whether that's all been taken into consideration already is not for me to know, but if one class gets buffed because a plugin is derpy a percentage of the time, shouldn't all classes get a bit of a buff if it's affected as well?

Was only jesting, but I get your point.

 

[Halizu]

However, my priority with Dragoon right now is not their escape, but their damage output, as Zaihn has stated. The next update will be focused on toning that down a bit.

I'm sure you've seen this video where the Dragoon beats the crap out of the Paladin, yet the Paladin still wins. So, if you're saying Dragoon is slightly Overpowered, surely Paladin is more so...

 

[Delfofthebla]

Nope. I've been saying since the start of the map (Disciple is fun/good, when Forcepush works). In response, I'd get a "that's life" and carry on. Now that apparently it's become evident that Dragoon has to be buffed in certain areas because NoCheat plays a factor in a Dragoon's Jump/SuperJump skills, the same logic has to be placed on Disciple, no?

Whether that's all been taken into consideration already is not for me to know, but if one class gets buffed because a plugin is derpy a percentage of the time, shouldn't all classes get a bit of a buff if it's affected as well?

Dragoon isn't being "buffed" to accommodate nocheat. It's more of the opposite. I'm holding off on weakening their abilities because that would push them too low in terms of viability/enjoyment.

I'm sure you've seen this video where the Dragoon beats the crap out of the Paladin, yet the Paladin still wins. So, if you're saying Dragoon is slightly Overpowered, surely Paladin is more so...

That video doesn't really show much. The paladin was clearly having lag issues, and to top it off, he used layhands. While I agree that paladins aren't exactly where I want them to be, I don't see how that has much to do with this thread, or dragoons.

Besides, dragoons are more focused around world PvP, not colosseum duels. Due to the small size of that particular arena map, the class cannot utilize it's mobility and utility to the degree it can in the open world. The Dragoon should be at the disadvantage in this situation. They aren't faceroll damage dealers, they shouldn't be fighting the same way a Paladin, Samurai, or runeblade does.

 

[Halizu]

I think that this applies to Wizard too, a Wizard can easily hold his own in a duel, but like Dragoon, because of the class's mobility/utility, it should be at a disadvantage.
Delfofthebla