• Guest, we are doing a new map (refresh) for Herocraft. Gather your friends and get ready! Coming next Friday, 06/28/24 @ 7PM CT play.hc.to
    Read up on the guides and new systems! Here.
    View the LIVE Map here @ hc.to/map
    Stuck or have a problem? use "/pe create" to to open a ticket with staff (There are some known issues and other hotfixes we will be pushing asap)
  • Guest, Make sure to use our LAUNCHER! Read more here!

Suggestion Current Samurai Problems

Y

ytiggidmas

There are currently a lot of problems with the new Samurai that make it the awkward class it now is.
Such as
  • Disgrace/Mortalwound Not worth using in nearly ANY 1v1 situation Delfofthebla help me here
  • Samurai's that purely rely on instant damage skills have a significantly higher chance of winning over those who use Disgrace/Mortalwound
  • For those who don't understand, Samurai's are straying away
  • The new Windwalk needs to return to it's old state, or be changed/replaced(please reply with your suggestions)
  • While this isn't really a problem, the majority of the players prefer the old look. Hence the new 'awkward' Samurai.(The whole one diamond piece per warrior seems unnecessary- the better the armor you have is more it should cost imo)
Using Fearless pre-fight->Disarm->Cleave->Strike(Now best combo- In general) works a billion times better than Using Fearless->Disarm->Disgrace->Mortalwound(Ex-best combo- In general) Replace disarm when fighting healer/mages with windwalk.

TL;DR: Samurai's secondary skills are way better than their primary, Using Cleave is generally better than using Asuraslash, Cleave/Bash/Strike are better combination than even Disarm->Disgrace->Mortalwound. Reverting Disgrace, and Mortalwound could be a quick fix for this, or if you want to go more into it just please post a reply.


Delfofthebla Haunted9899 w0nd3rb0y @macura-Please leave your opinions on this
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
I will try to address these issues before the next update. I agree that the current Samurai is straying too much away from what it was before. Additionally, it has become faaar too bursty, even in comparison to its previous iterations.
 

victim130

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Totally agree with all of that :( been trying to pump out as much testing on Samurai, seems to be that only casters (Namely, wizards and Necros) are currently the only troublesome classes aside from Sammy on Sammy that bring a problem to combat with a Samurai. Any other class is pretty easy to destroy with a simple Fearless, Cleave, AS, auto attack-Cleavespam.

I don't want to pull out some long winded reasoning post, but rest assured that I am doing tons of testing and I have seen these problems and will help Delf where I can to fix the class.
 

macura

Diamond
Joined
May 2, 2012
I think that once physical skills are affected by armor again things will be fixed, then skills like cleave wont be such a nuke. As for windwalk it is fine as it is.
 

Warmachinexp

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Feb 13, 2012
The whole one diamond piece per warrior class was more so thought around warriors need strong armor. The only classes that were actually effected by the armor change were paladin and dreadknight both getting a decrease in armor by .5 in a 1-10. Samurai's with iron boost chain helmet was actually the same armor rating as diamond helmet with chain boot.
 

victim130

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
The whole one diamond piece per warrior class was more so thought around warriors need strong armor. The only classes that were actually effected by the armor change were paladin and dreadknight both getting a decrease in armor by .5 in a 1-10. Samurai's with iron boost chain helmet was actually the same armor rating as diamond helmet with chain boot.
It just looks ugly though :( Though it does add cost to our class.
 

victim130

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
I think that once physical skills are affected by armor again things will be fixed, then skills like cleave wont be such a nuke. As for windwalk it is fine as it is.
I keep over looking this. Delfofthebla do you know what causes this to happen? Might solve all the bursty melee problems we are seeing haha.
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
I keep over looking this. Delfofthebla do you know what causes this to happen? Might solve all the bursty melee problems we are seeing haha.
No. It's something on the internal side of Heroes that occurred when Herocraft switched over to bukkit based damage. (The update that made sharpness work for swords)

I keep buggin Kainzo about it, and he keeps buggin Sleaker about it, but apparently Sleaker isn't giving it much attention. ><
 

Rumblestikk

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Location
The Multiverse
No. It's something on the internal side of Heroes that occurred when Herocraft switched over to bukkit based damage. (The update that made sharpness work for swords)

I keep buggin Kainzo about it, and he keeps buggin Sleaker about it, but apparently Sleaker isn't giving it much attention. ><

Poke them harder!
 

Zaihn

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
What's the issue with samurai?
The class seems very viable even though
not all the skills are used in the general rotation.
It also has some solid counters and classes that
stand a good chance 1v1.

Are you looking for a clean up on the class?
If so I imagine that will be low priority
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
What's the issue with samurai?
The class seems very viable even though
not all the skills are used in the general rotation.
It also has some solid counters and classes that
stand a good chance 1v1.

Are you looking for a clean up on the class?
If so I imagine that will be low priority
The class was previously too strong. It's overbearing speed and melee damage combined with DoT effects gave it the ability to pretty much destroy anyone or anything. I think that the only class that actually was able to take on a good samurai in a 1v1 was a Beguiler with MassPiggify.

Their DoT effects were lessened to make them less potent, their WindWalk was reduced to Speed II, and their melee damage was also reduced slightly. This prevented them from being able to completely destroy any player at the speed it did before. This also made them less of a caster killer. These were necessary changes.

However, with the addition of AsuraSlash, combined with the bug that causes all abilities to go through armor, they have a new method of bursting targets down. They are just as powerful as they used to be in regards to melee, and that isn't something that was intended.

Using fearless in combination with Strike, AsuraSlash, Cleave, or Bash, they are able to deal insane amounts of burst damage--almost to the point of Ninja Backstab ganking.

This is bad for a couple of reasons.
1. They should not be able to deal this amount of damage so quickly.
2. Their "primary" abilities (disgrace/mortalwound) are no longer used as much.

The next update is supposed to "slow down" Herocraft combat. We are attempting to make fights last longer. One of the things that needs to be alleviated for this update is the Samurai being able to burst down a target this quickly. We will try to accomplish this while also ensuring they switch back over to disgrace as their bread and butter ability.
 

Avoir

Obsidian
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Who says samurai's don't use disgrace anymore? I just don't use mortalwound because the dmg was nerfed and it's now a waste of stamina.
 

macura

Diamond
Joined
May 2, 2012
The class was previously too strong. It's overbearing speed and melee damage combined with DoT effects gave it the ability to pretty much destroy anyone or anything. I think that the only class that actually was able to take on a good samurai in a 1v1 was a Beguiler with MassPiggify.

Their DoT effects were lessened to make them less potent, their WindWalk was reduced to Speed II, and their melee damage was also reduced slightly. This prevented them from being able to completely destroy any player at the speed it did before. This also made them less of a caster killer. These were necessary changes.

However, with the addition of AsuraSlash, combined with the bug that causes all abilities to go through armor, they have a new method of bursting targets down. They are just as powerful as they used to be in regards to melee, and that isn't something that was intended.

Using fearless in combination with Strike, AsuraSlash, Cleave, or Bash, they are able to deal insane amounts of burst damage--almost to the point of Ninja Backstab ganking.

This is bad for a couple of reasons.
1. They should not be able to deal this amount of damage so quickly.
2. Their "primary" abilities (disgrace/mortalwound) are no longer used as much.

The next update is supposed to "slow down" Herocraft combat. We are attempting to make fights last longer. One of the things that needs to be alleviated for this update is the Samurai being able to burst down a target this quickly. We will try to accomplish this while also ensuring they switch back over to disgrace as their bread and butter ability.
To be honest i don't like asura slash as a skill for samurai, it doesn't fit the class all that well and even though it does some damage to the caster it is too strong of a nuke for samurai to have. IMO asura slash should be removed or put on a really high cd. What i think would be best is if bladegrasp were to be reworked. If bladegrasp were to have a far shorter cd, duration and a slightly lower stamina cost. So that it could be used tactically instead of something that you use and just swinging your sword. If the duration, stamina cost and cd were lowered you could use it multiple times in a fight.

As bladegrasp stands now it has a decent cd and the samurai uses it and just tries to smack as many people as they can within its duration.

If bladegrasp were reworked it would actually be able to be incorporated into a fight with methodology instead of a short period of time in which you run around spam clicking.
I don't have time to revise this post and i feel as though i am starting to ramble but this is essentially what i think will happen if this change were to occur.

It would enable samurai to remain a counter to rogues and this would allow changes to be made to the class so that it doesn't facefuck casters as soon as they touch them.
-The short duration of blade grasp with lessened nuke damage for samurais would allow them to counter rogues and remain even with other warriors because of the short durations of blade grasping. With this compensation samurai's nuke could be lowered without making them not have enough damage to kill rogues. The samurais would not be able to bladegrasp against casters for obvious reasons. With this change samurais could remain where they are relative to rogues and other warriors while not completely taking a dump on all casters.

A median between nuke nerfing and blade grasp buffing could be found and the change would have to be made all at once so that samurais wont either suck or rape everything.

I was thinking:
bladegrasp:
Duration: 2s
cd: 10-20s
Reagent: lower to 1 iron bar because it would be used more often.

Some people might say "This would turn bladegrasp into a shittier version of disarm" which if no other changes were made, would be true. To compensate for this the message for blade grasp could be removed. When people are disarmed they automatically know because of the sound and the lack of weapons in their hands, they imediated run or attempt to punch you away. If the message for blade grasp were removed people most likely would not notice that they could not melee you until it was too late for them. By the time the person realizes that you had bladegrasped you would have gotten several hits off on them and the duration would most likely have ended so there would be nothing that they could do about it now. Some people might read this far into my suggestion but several to most will read half of this or just skim and will just think "remove asura slash and nerf blade grasp" is all that i am saying. If you are still reading this, good for you, you have a decent attention span.

This post was mainly just rambling and jumbled ideas but if anyone could give me their feedback then my idea could be refined or changed if people deemed it worthy to be considered.
 

w0nd3rb0y

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
May 4, 2012
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
To be honest i don't like asura slash as a skill for samurai, it doesn't fit the class all that well and even though it does some damage to the caster it is too strong of a nuke for samurai to have. IMO asura slash should be removed or put on a really high cd. What i think would be best is if bladegrasp were to be reworked. If bladegrasp were to have a far shorter cd, duration and a slightly lower stamina cost. So that it could be used tactically instead of something that you use and just swinging your sword. If the duration, stamina cost and cd were lowered you could use it multiple times in a fight.

As bladegrasp stands now it has a decent cd and the samurai uses it and just tries to smack as many people as they can within its duration.

If bladegrasp were reworked it would actually be able to be incorporated into a fight with methodology instead of a short period of time in which you run around spam clicking.
I don't have time to revise this post and i feel as though i am starting to ramble but this is essentially what i think will happen if this change were to occur.

It would enable samurai to remain a counter to rogues and this would allow changes to be made to the class so that it doesn't facefuck casters as soon as they touch them.
-The short duration of blade grasp with lessened nuke damage for samurais would allow them to counter rogues and remain even with other warriors because of the short durations of blade grasping. With this compensation samurai's nuke could be lowered without making them not have enough damage to kill rogues. The samurais would not be able to bladegrasp against casters for obvious reasons. With this change samurais could remain where they are relative to rogues and other warriors while not completely taking a dump on all casters.

A median between nuke nerfing and blade grasp buffing could be found and the change would have to be made all at once so that samurais wont either suck or rape everything.

I was thinking:
bladegrasp:
Duration: 2s
cd: 10-20s
Reagent: lower to 1 iron bar because it would be used more often.

Some people might say "This would turn bladegrasp into a shittier version of disarm" which if no other changes were made, would be true. To compensate for this the message for blade grasp could be removed. When people are disarmed they automatically know because of the sound and the lack of weapons in their hands, they imediated run or attempt to punch you away. If the message for blade grasp were removed people most likely would not notice that they could not melee you until it was too late for them. By the time the person realizes that you had bladegrasped you would have gotten several hits off on them and the duration would most likely have ended so there would be nothing that they could do about it now. Some people might read this far into my suggestion but several to most will read half of this or just skim and will just think "remove asura slash and nerf blade grasp" is all that i am saying. If you are still reading this, good for you, you have a decent attention span.

This post was mainly just rambling and jumbled ideas but if anyone could give me their feedback then my idea could be refined or changed if people deemed it worthy to be considered.
love it, I hate the BG is on a 150~ sec cd, or whatever it it, for only 5 secs of invuln to melee and arrows. If we shorten it to half that, it wouldnt be so rediculous. I mean shieldreflect could be brought into comparison here. Though its not an invuln, your dmg is being directed right back at you, and its on like a 10sec cd. So just as an example, sammy will sometimes destroy itself if they dont notice shieldflect.
 

Haunted9899

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Location
Glendale, Arizona, United States
There are currently a lot of problems with the new Samurai that make it the awkward class it now is.
Such as
  • Disgrace/Mortalwound Not worth using in nearly ANY 1v1 situation Delfofthebla help me here
  • Samurai's that purely rely on instant damage skills have a significantly higher chance of winning over those who use Disgrace/Mortalwound
  • For those who don't understand, Samurai's are straying away
  • The new Windwalk needs to return to it's old state, or be changed/replaced(please reply with your suggestions)
  • While this isn't really a problem, the majority of the players prefer the old look. Hence the new 'awkward' Samurai.(The whole one diamond piece per warrior seems unnecessary- the better the armor you have is more it should cost imo)
Using Fearless pre-fight->Disarm->Cleave->Strike(Now best combo- In general) works a billion times better than Using Fearless->Disarm->Disgrace->Mortalwound(Ex-best combo- In general) Replace disarm when fighting healer/mages with windwalk.

TL;DR: Samurai's secondary skills are way better than their primary, Using Cleave is generally better than using Asuraslash, Cleave/Bash/Strike are better combination than even Disarm->Disgrace->Mortalwound. Reverting Disgrace, and Mortalwound could be a quick fix for this, or if you want to go more into it just please post a reply.


Delfofthebla Haunted9899 w0nd3rb0y @macura-Please leave your opinions on this
I have noticed these issues as well, We should try to balance Samurai and bring it back to what it once was.(while including Asuraslash of course). Also, It can't be known for sure how Samurai will work once the warrior abilities are no longer going through armor.
 

Ellron23

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Sep 28, 2012
Location
Umbra, California
Windwalk argument has been resolved on another thread. Some GGG named Ellron23 did some maths.
Lets look at the numbers, shall we? Bear in mind these are vanilla MC numbers, I'm not sure how it's been altered for HC. Also know that a minecraft block is 1 meter cubed.

Vanilla Minecraft Walking Speed: 4.3 m/s
Minecraft Sprint Multiplier: 1.3x
Vanilla Minecraft Sprint Speed: 5.6 m/s

So to get everything straight, a caster, without any potions, can run away from you at 5.6 meters per second, not calculating for the blink if that caster happened to be a wizard.

Swiftness I Buff: Speed increased by +20%
Swiftness II Buff: Speed increased by +40%
Swiftness III Buff: Speed increased by +60%

This means that if a samurai is running at 5.6 m/s (standard sprint speed) and he has a Speed II buff, he can move at 7.84 m/s. That is quite fast. Now if it was a Speed III buff, he would move at 8.96 m/s.

So what if the person you are trying to catch up to has blink? Let's do some more calculations, shall we?

Blink Distance: 12 blocks
Blink Cooldown: 8 seconds
Blink Speed per Second: 1.5 m/s

So that means with Blink and vanilla sprinting, the fastest a wizard can move at is 7.1 blocks per second.

In conclusion: The argument that any class can escape from a samurai, other than Dragoon and Bard / people buffed by a Bard, is invalid. With a Speed II, they can only keep the distance between them and the samurai equal, until either Windwalk or the potion runs out.
 
Top