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Cookies for non casters?

Howdanrocks

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Joined
Feb 3, 2011
I was in a tourny today with a necro and realized how unfair casters getting mana from cookies is, at least when non casters can't. The necro was able to just 'web' me and then cast a fireball at me and i could do nothing about it. Normally, to the advice of C120-something something, I would charge out, but because of the high mana cost of charge and the fact that we can't eat cookies for mana, I was unable to do so throughout the entire battle. The necro was able to keep casting fireballs and webbing me with cookies, why can't others eat cookies for mana?
 

Thunderjolt

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Jan 15, 2011
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Hmmm... This sounds like less of a problem with cookies and more a problem with the cooldown of web. Do you know the exact amount of time?
 

c12095

Holy Shit!
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Jun 22, 2011
He was webbed close to five seconds, with maybe a 7-10 second CD on web, at least by my count.
 

Danda

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Jan 21, 2011
Hmmm... This sounds like less of a problem with cookies and more a problem with the cooldown of web. Do you know the exact amount of time?
It is practically the same thing trying to chase down a wizard with root and blink.

Cookies were origionally given to casters to give them extra mana than the other classes.
Then after that they also got mana reductions across the board on all their spells and some of them have replenish some of the caster classes can have a near infinite mana pool.
Personally I think this is a repercussion of these changes that have taken a while to be realized.

I think the main issue is the recent balance changes to casters to make them more viable against samurai etc has indirectly nerfed Dragoons. Currently Dragoons are designed to take out ranged classes. However ALL ranged classes have some kind of movement hindering spell which ruin a dragoons day as the class is designed around movement. Yes you could say that jump/charge break out of these spells but we can only use these 5 times before running out of mana when we also need these to close the gap. We also cannot aim these skills while rooted etc so we can end up jumping into lava or some shit.

Now this combined with the fact all of the caster classes can spam their movement impairing spells Dragoons have become almost useless against them.

I'm thinking some kind of skill to break movement impairing spells might solve this issue. I'm thinking low mana cost medium cooldown might do the trick.
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Unfortunately Necromancers dont get consume, so cookies are just food for us. Web, depending on the situation can be somewhat OP but the problem with it is that against a sprinting opponent it is useless. They simply are slowed for a second or two before they exit (or it misses them altogether.)

In addition to its dubious usefulness it requires string as a reagent, making a freshly spawned necro unable to cast it. You were probably getting web-spammed and fireballed because the rest of the necromancer abilities (i am looking at you skeleton, battery, hellgate etc.) are rather useless when their mana cost and the lack of replenish/consume is taken into account.
 

Howdanrocks

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Feb 3, 2011
Unfortunately Necromancers dont get consume, so cookies are just food for us. Web, depending on the situation can be somewhat OP but the problem with it is that against a sprinting opponent it is useless. They simply are slowed for a second or two before they exit (or it misses them altogether.)

In addition to its dubious usefulness it requires string as a reagent, making a freshly spawned necro unable to cast it. You were probably getting web-spammed and fireballed because the rest of the necromancer abilities (i am looking at you skeleton, battery, hellgate etc.) are rather useless when their mana cost and the lack of replenish/consume is taken into account.

No, I was fighting a necro and they said they were using cookies for mana. String is easy to come by too.
 

OrangeAngel

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
May 30, 2011
We dont Eat cookies for mana. We casters have the spell consume which make food into mana which helps with our large mana costs, dont complain else then casters are completely worthless without consume.
 

Dazureus

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Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Location
Texas
I think the main issue is the recent balance changes to casters to make them more viable against samurai etc has indirectly nerfed Dragoons. Currently Dragoons are designed to take out ranged classes. However ALL ranged classes have some kind of movement hindering spell which ruin a dragoons day as the class is designed around movement. Yes you could say that jump/charge break out of these spells but we can only use these 5 times before running out of mana when we also need these to close the gap. We also cannot aim these skills while rooted etc so we can end up jumping into lava or some shit.

Now this combined with the fact all of the caster classes can spam their movement impairing spells Dragoons have become almost useless against them.
You mentioned Dragoons. I had to reply. :p

I never did get a response as to what the Dragoon's play style is supposed to look like. Anti-long range does seem like a nice niche for them... Now I didn't think you could move at all, due to skills or anything else, while Rooted. Is this untrue?
I think, if Dragoon skills can be used to escape these traps we have plenty of opportunities to do so already. 5 chances isn't bad at all.

I'm thinking some kind of skill to break movement impairing spells might solve this issue. I'm thinking low mana cost medium cooldown might do the trick.
I support. Although personally I'd like to blend that effect into a buff like my DragonSkin idea. Seems a good fit.

As for the situation regarding cookies, I think all classes should get some kind of mana-restoring item, not just mages. Maybe Mundane/Awkward Potions could become the new cookie? They don't stack, either. And would it be very difficult to just give Casters and Healers a mana cap of 150% or something? Varied mana caps would make this a lot easier to deal with and it could set up another layer of flavor to these classes. Even if that's impossible, it sounds like reducing the cost of their skills AND giving them Replenish should be enough.

EDIT: I didn't realize how Consume worked, it seems. It still sounds as though spellcaster classes are getting quite a bit of slack here.
 

SaberStone

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Jul 28, 2011
yes but only wizards have instamana recovery. geos dont have enough mp to use half the skills. plus the melee with caster is unimaginably horrible. put a ninja and a caster in a 12x12 room and ill bet the ninja will wi. plz read my post on caster mana. mp is kinda like our only weapon.
 

Dazureus

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Jan 14, 2011
Location
Texas
yes but only wizards have instamana recovery.
I didn't know that. Okay.
geos dont have enough mp to use half the skills.
I don't exactly understand what you mean here.
plus the melee with caster is unimaginably horrible. put a ninja and a caster in a 12x12 room and ill bet the ninja will win
This is more or less a given. Ninja > Caster in the melee department, yes.
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Geo's have plenty of mana to use all of their skills. The massive amount of damage that a geo can put out is offset by their lack of replenish. They can still use consume though, but as a straight dps class it makes sense to not give them all their mana back at once.

I do think that the rate of mana regeneration for spec'd caster classes should be upped. Especially since (unless I'm wrong) cocoa beans only appear in the now ravaged spawner chests. In my experience I have found that it's hard to come by enough to be able to make cookies reliably (without constantly searching shops). Perhaps classes that dont receive replenish should lose consume and gain an accelerated mana regen (passive not active.)
 

SaberStone

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Jul 28, 2011
Lol sorryy dazureus. was on ipod quik typing so mt thoughts are a lil jumbled. its a given the ninja would win. but im saying that mayb casters should get bette mele. if not why not more mana cuz like seven said cocoa israre and expensive. coolies themelves are too to rare to eat consistently.

Edit: I was saying that without maybe a lil more mana for geos, its impossible to cast most of the spells out there available for them
 

Danda

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Jan 21, 2011
We dont Eat cookies for mana. We casters have the spell consume which make food into mana which helps with our large mana costs, dont complain else then casters are completely worthless without consume.
Yes they are then completely useless when all of their mana costs got reduced by 25% and 1/2 of them also have replenish...

Alot of the caster classes have a vast mana pool

While I agree that casters should have a larger mana pool than other classes either in the ability to regen mana OR a reduction in mana costs but they have both which create quite a large imbalance when coupled with the fact they have short cooldowns on web/root/etc
 

Danda

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Jan 21, 2011
yes but only wizards have instamana recovery. geos dont have enough mp to use half the skills. plus the melee with caster is unimaginably horrible. put a ninja and a caster in a 12x12 room and ill bet the ninja will wi. plz read my post on caster mana. mp is kinda like our only weapon.
I agree which is why I was trying to lean more to issues with root etc rather than mana
 
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