Suggestion Bards - Worst support skills?

[c12095]

Bards are actually decent at what they do. You guys whine and complain because they aren't OP. Then you whine and complain when they are. Learn how to play a support class. Bards aren't Katarina, they don't get pentakills. Plus why don't you use multiple songs at once? Try to play as a bard would. They aren't going to take down a dreadknight with a fricking jukebox people, why don't you try singing him a lullaby? He could fall asleep!

Why are you on the balance team exactly?

 

[PernixPike]

Bards are actually decent at what they do. You guys whine and complain because they aren't OP. Then you whine and complain when they are. Learn how to play a support class. Bards aren't Katarina, they don't get pentakills. Plus why don't you use multiple songs at once? Try to play as a bard would. They aren't going to take down a dreadknight with a fricking jukebox people, why don't you try singing him a lullaby? He could fall asleep!

I'm not asking for them to take down a DK in a 1v1, I'm asking for them to actually give worthwhile buffs to party members.

 

[Dsawemd]

Lullaby-
Target put to sleep by the bards gentle crooning. 10 seconds immobile, silenced, no/impaired sight, breaks on damage.

Target takes 25% more damage when asleep? (1st hit only so Lullaby + harmtouch on the healer wins that pvp tourney)?

Long cool down, medium cost. Reagent in keeping with lore could be feathers or a noteblock.

This would be OP in highly organized PvP, and if this or similiar changes are buffed, regular attack dmg should be nerfed a bit or another nerf, not sure where. In keeping with support role, and this would be the first skill to focus on removing a pvp'er from combat without killing them.

 

[PernixPike]

Bards, by design, have group buffs that are very short in duration and low in cost. These skills are meant to be "Twisted" or "combined" to form a song/melody - obviously some of this isnt possible in MC - but that is the basic setup of the class.

Bard's are also meant to be a jack of all trades. They should be able to touch down on most all aspects of gameplay but not "master" any one of them.

What class is meant to be "master" in support?

 

[teddytazer]

I'm hoping bloodmage cause it's pretty much garbage when it comes to pvp. but more then likely cleric and beguiler.

 

[PernixPike]

I'm hoping bloodmage cause it's pretty much garbage when it comes to pvp. but more then likely cleric and beguiler.

Beguiler is meant to be a master of deception and illusion, not a group support class. Cleric was created with the intention of support, but Might does not fit with its description/lore.

 

[AzenYumCha]

Beguiler is meant to be a master of deception and illusion, not a group support class. Cleric was created with the intention of support, but Might does not fit with its description/lore.

You're making Beguilers sound like a pile of assturd. You dont really sound like you are upping bard, but nerfing the classes that have the same support skills as it.

As for lore, it fits quite well. Beguilers can play around with players, by the means of buffing them, debuffing them or momentarily forcing them on a pig.

although your statements are too much comparison with a cleric might and a beguiler wisdom/might, i understand the need of bards support clas. Might could be incresed to 30% and/or Wisdom could regen 120% more instead and quicken with a miniature jumpboost or so.

 

[PernixPike]

I like your ideas Azen, and I would like to see Bard buffed in support abilities.

 

[malmenca]

SO what about the fact that wisdom is useless to us? I recognize we are a buff class, but during any solo-play, the skill is literally worthless.

 

[teddytazer]

Btw. Bloodmage has worst support skills, bandage (can't use in combat) Chant (4 sec warmup) Antidote. So stop whining about bard please.

 

[malmenca]

No one is whining, other than your incessant whine that continues on about anyone who offers their opinion.

 

[AzenYumCha]

Btw. Bloodmage has worst support skills, bandage (can't use in combat) Chant (4 sec warmup) Antidote. So stop whining about bard please.

Your statement about the issues with Bloodmage has no relation to Bards whatsoever. Please keep in topic and bring your opinion to a designated thread, thanks.

 

[PernixPike]

I'm going to bump this thread back after taking a closer look at Beguiler (Bard's caster counterpart)

Currently Beguiler outclasses Bard in almost every way conceivable.

Beguiler
Mana: 206 - Hitpoints: 836
Piggify: 6 second single target root/silence - 23 Mana - 25 second cooldown
Mass Piggify: 7 second AOE root/silence - 30 Mana - 120 second cooldown
Plaguebomb: 233 AOE damage - 20 Mana - 5 second cooldown
Pulse: 116 AOE damage - 30 Mana - 10 second cooldown
Fireball: 150 damage + Fire

Beguiler's Wisdom last's 3 minutes, effectively giving them permanent increased Mana regeneration. Beguiler also has helpful utilities such as Dispel, Purge, Quantum Leap, and Teleport.

Bard
Mana: 129 - Hitpoints: 836
MelodicBinding: 0.5 second warmup - 3 second AOE slow - 20 Mana, 6 Stamina - 20 second cooldown
BoastfulBellow (I know right): 0.5 second warmup - 80 AOE damage - 20 Mana, 6 Stamina - 10 second cd
Voidsong: 1 second warmup - 89 damage AOE 3 second silence - 20 Mana, 6 Stamina - 20 second cooldown
HealingChorus: 50 HP heal and debuff - 20 Mana - 10 second cooldown

Comparisons for each buffs were listed at the start of the thread (Beguiler still outclassed Bard there). The only place where Bard has and advantage is melee, which is obvious considering it's a rogue spec. Keeping that in mind though to do equivalent damage to 1 PlagueBomb (5 second cd - insta cast) Bard would have to use every AOE it has, taking around 2.5 seconds to cast, and costing 60 mana/18 stamina (Bard would not be able to use these skills again for another 20 seconds). As said before, Beguiler also has far better utility than Bard out of combat with skills such as Teleport and Quantum Leap.

Bard is dominated by Beguiler in nearly every way, yet they are both meant to play a similar role in combat. I believe that Bard should have it's buff durations last as long as a Beguilers to help balance this.

 

[Kainzo]

I'm going to bump this thread back after taking a closer look at Beguiler (Bard's caster counterpart)

Currently Beguiler outclasses Bard in almost every way conceivable.

Beguiler
Mana: 206 - Hitpoints: 836
Piggify: 6 second single target root/silence - 23 Mana - 25 second cooldown
Mass Piggify: 7 second AOE root/silence - 30 Mana - 120 second cooldown
Plaguebomb: 233 AOE damage - 20 Mana - 5 second cooldown
Pulse: 116 AOE damage - 30 Mana - 10 second cooldown
Fireball: 150 damage + Fire

Beguiler's Wisdom last's 3 minutes, effectively giving them permanent increased Mana regeneration. Beguiler also has helpful utilities such as Dispel, Purge, Quantum Leap, and Teleport.

Bard
Mana: 129 - Hitpoints: 836
MelodicBinding: 0.5 second warmup - 3 second AOE slow - 20 Mana, 6 Stamina - 20 second cooldown
BoastfulBellow (I know right): 0.5 second warmup - 80 AOE damage - 20 Mana, 6 Stamina - 10 second cd
Voidsong: 1 second warmup - 89 damage AOE 3 second silence - 20 Mana, 6 Stamina - 20 second cooldown
HealingChorus: 50 HP heal and debuff - 20 Mana - 10 second cooldown

Comparisons for each buffs were listed at the start of the thread (Beguiler still outclassed Bard there). The only place where Bard has and advantage is melee, which is obvious considering it's a rogue spec. Keeping that in mind though to do equivalent damage to 1 PlagueBomb (5 second cd - insta cast) Bard would have to use every AOE it has, taking around 2.5 seconds to cast, and costing 60 mana/18 stamina (Bard would not be able to use these skills again for another 20 seconds). As said before, Beguiler also has far better utility than Bard out of combat with skills such as Teleport and Quantum Leap.

Bard is dominated by Beguiler in nearly every way, yet they are both meant to play a similar role in combat. I believe that Bard should have it's buff durations last as long as a Beguilers to help balance this.

You aren't taking into consideration that Plaguebomb is a random skill. So is Fireball - they aren't 100% hits. If you're good with them, sure you can hit with them most of the time.

The only 100% hitter is Pulse.

Bard has mostly all 100% hitters and then they have their melee.
Bard is.... 30% rogue, 30% beguiler 20% healer 20% fruit

The bard songs are short duration buffs - they are not intended to last long. They are intended to be re-used over and over again to keep them up. Effectively allowing the bard to "twist" certain abilities and not keep all of them up at one time.

To ensure Bard's have the "oomph" to keep up with the re-casts - I am lowering the costs of their songs.
http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/dev-notes-3-81.22481/

 

[MrAwesomeShadow]

Solution for the bards: Release your inner fruit!

 

[Tjundis]

Although it is annoying to constantly refresh manasong and warsong, I'd just really like to see Healingchorus heal more, or have a lower cd & mana cost.

 

[malmenca]

On a slightly different track, @Kainzo why are bard buffs not intended to be long? If you look at it from a balance point of view, even if the values were the same as that of the beguiler, bard would still be weaker because the player has to micromanage their skills in order to be effective. (It is very difficult to micro all your skills effectively AND hit people with your jukebox whilst having to dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.(And even if your good at micromanaging, there is no reward for doing so, it just ensures that you don't completly suck)) Bard is more difficult to play, yet less rewarding.

My suggestion would be some sort of skill, passive or something that could be a benefit if one can successfully micro the skills into a wombo-combo or something. I'm still formulating this idea and I do not know what is possible.

 

[PernixPike]

You aren't taking into consideration that Plaguebomb is a random skill. So is Fireball - they aren't 100% hits. If you're good with them, sure you can hit with them most of the time.

The only 100% hitter is Pulse.

Bard has mostly all 100% hitters and then they have their melee.
Bard is.... 30% rogue, 30% beguiler 20% healer 20% fruit

The bard songs are short duration buffs - they are not intended to last long. They are intended to be re-used over and over again to keep them up. Effectively allowing the bard to "twist" certain abilities and not keep all of them up at one time.

To ensure Bard's have the "oomph" to keep up with the re-casts - I am lowering the costs of their songs.
http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/dev-notes-3-81.22481/

I like the idea of lowered Mana costs, but you seem to forget something very important about Beguilers: Piggify. This skills allows PlagueBomb and Fireball to both hit 90-100% of the time. A half decent Beguiler can time both skills to hit at the same time, doing nearly 400 damage and setting the target on fire. Because Piggify is a 5 second root, Beguilers have as much time as they need to aim and prepare their combo.

Bard's skills may be 100% hitters, but the warmups assure that you WILL be hit while casting them, often making them impractical in basic combat.

 

[malmenca]

Although it is annoying to constantly refresh manasong and warsong, I'd just really like to see Healingchorus heal more, or have a lower cd & mana cost.

Healing song sux. When I was a bard, it healed half a heart (I never actually checked the hp amount, I think 50) and removed debuffs, but not poison.. I remember going into a MA and then after like 15 rounds realized it wasn't cleansing poison...

Back on Zeal when I Was a bard, it healed ~2 1/2 hearts with a ~10 second CD and ~20% mana. It was quite effective yet not too good in that I never died. It also fit really well into the wombo-combo of skill usage, wisdom, might, chakra, pulse wisdom, might, beating with a jukebox, chakra. etc

 

[Kainzo]

The healing amount of healing chorus may get a slight increase - 50 hp was a quick setting.