Suggestion Balancing Ninja In 2 Steps

[malikdanab]

That solves nothing. You're nerfing it's base health by 31HP... This means that instead of a Ninja's health being 902HP at level 65 with 0 points into constitution, it'll be at 871. Current Ninjas on the server who have, for example, 1,060 HP will now 'only' have 1,029 HP. I don't think that's the hard HP nerf that people have been demanding.

The problem is two things :
Ninjas get a 4HP increase per level (Same as all Rogues)
Constitution is giving Ninjas too much HP.

902HP without putting a single point into constitution is too much. I'm of the opinion that if a Ninja wants to even touch 900HP that they'd have to put a good amount of points into Constitution... 950HP being next to impossible. Perhaps an increase of 2.5-3 HP should occur for every point a Ninja puts into Constitution.

Just throwing numbers out there, if a Ninja's HP was 830 at level 65 with 0 constitution and had an increase of 3HP per point put into Con it would require 24 Constitution to get to 902 HP.

It's a problem with all rogues TBH. Every rogues (Besides Runeblade) has a higher base hp than Paladins (The supposedly "Most Tanky" class)
My change was based on making ninja more inline with other rogues. If I had my way I would make every rogues base hp lower:

Runeblade: 595 to 515
Ninja: 646 to 530
Ranger: 634 to 545
Bard: 674 to 585

Note: these changes are based on Dragoon's Base HP of 608. I'm in the opinion that all rogues should have less HP than a warrior.

 

[Keache]

Claiming that Paladin isn't as tanky as Runeblades and Ninjas is bullshit. You guys are well aware of the fact that Paladins have an instant 80% heal, another 150+ heal, the best armor out of any other class in the game, magic damage mitigation, physical damage reflection, AND an invuln.

If you think, in ANY capacity, that Paladin is not the most tanky class in herocraft (provided you're not retarded and building it properly) then you need to stop smoking so much goddamn crack.

 

[Keache]

This post will be the basis to which I will make my proposal

Ninja's Health:
Decreased Base from 646 to 615-625 (For Reference- Runeblade: 595, Ranger: 634, and Bard: 674)
Blackjack:

• Can only be used if you are sneaking/invisible
• Base reduced to 0.75 sec stun
• If used from behind 1 second stun

Any input and suggestions ( Which i agree with) will be edited into the list.

I like these proposals, though I would bump the stun duration when used from behind to 1.25 seconds.

 

[malikdanab]

Claiming that Paladin isn't as tanky as Runeblades and Ninjas is bullshit. You guys are well aware of the fact that Paladins have an instant 80% heal, another 150+ heal, the best armor out of any other class in the game, magic damage mitigation, physical damage reflection, AND an invuln.

If you think, in ANY capacity, that Paladin is not the most tanky class in herocraft (provided you're not retarded and building it properly) then you need to stop smoking so much goddamn crack.

I never said Paladin wasn't. I just find it weird that rogues have such high base HP.

 

[Keache]

I never said Paladin wasn't. I just find it weird that rogues have such high base HP.

It sounded like you and others were. But all that aside, rogues have roughly the same base hp as warriors, but the big difference here is that warriors have higher armor and tend to put a lot more points into constitution and endurance more often than not. On paper it looks like rogues are as tanky as warriors, but it's certainly not as black and white as that.

 

[malikdanab]

It sounded like you and others were. But all that aside, rogues have roughly the same base hp as warriors, but the big difference here is that warriors have higher armor and tend to put a lot more points into constitution and endurance more often than not. On paper it looks like rogues are as tanky as warriors, but it's certainly not as black and white as that.

Against magi, rogues ARE more tanky than some warriors since armor has no effect on magic dmg. The thing is, I would be fine if rogues had similar base to warriors, but they have HIGHER hp. My problem is that rogues (One of the more squishy group of classes) have some of the highest base HP in HC.

 

[Keache]

Against magi, rogues ARE more tanky than some warriors since armor has no effect on magic dmg. The thing is, I would be fine if rogues had similar base to warriors, but they have HIGHER hp. My problem is that rogues (One of the more squishy group of classes) have some of the highest base HP in HC.

You're absolutely right; IF a rogue puts a ridiculous amount of points into constitution. A lot of rogues cannot afford to do that without seriously reducing their effectiveness. They should be putting points into endurance, agility (rogues), strength, intellect, stuff that augments their damage and effectiveness, etc. My point is that they CAN become more tanky health wise when compared to warriors, but then they would be sacrificing arguably too much to accomplish that. Ideally, rogues will want to sit on low constitution, low magic resist, yet still have enough survivability to be viable. Some of the problem here is probably the fact that Strength is negligible on classes that don't particularly benefit from it skill wise. I think that that issue should be addressed before people try to tackle the issue of rogues being too tanky, because I believe that is the root of the cause here.

 

[malikdanab]

Even though rogues won't have as high of health as warriors, they still have considerably high hp without adding as many points due to thei high base.
For Example:
A bard at 65 with 15 CON has 1047 HP
A dragoon at 65 with 25 CON has 1089

It's true that Strength doesn't affect some classes (Thought I don't see how that affects ninja's tank-ness(Stay on topic) but neither does Agility and don't get me started on Charisma.

 

[Keache]

You should also factor in the armor differences.

Regardless of that, though, you should be able to easily see how strength (and other necessary rogue stats) affects tankiness.

Example: Ninjas should need a lot of agility in order to have a good backflip and backstab. Therefore, points that would otherwise be spent in improving tankiness will be spent into agility. a lot of strength is also needed on Ninja for a good eviscerate. Endurance is needed on Ninja in order to have decent armor and enough stamina regen to be able to stay effective in a fight. Charisma is needed in order to increase the effectiveness of Blackjack in order to make backstab as effective as possible.

Holy cow, I don't have any more points to put into constitution!

That is what the current base hp values are (or should be, anyway) balanced around in regards to Rogue. Correct me if I am wrong.

Warriors are balanced, or so it seems, around the same concept. Warriors are known for their tankiness and general disregard for agility and other stats that pertain more to rogues and casters. Therefore, they may load up on tankiness and strength, or whatever may pertain to them. The end result here is that warriors are tankier than rogues by a significant amount.

I am sanguine that this is the thought process behind the balancing of Ninja and rogues in general. If it is not, then it is because certain stats are not significant enough, and are easily skippable. In this current situation, strength is irrelevant for pretty much everyone (except ninja, if you want any eviscerate damage). How it should be, if it is not already, is that if you want to be tanky, you've got to sacrifice a significant amount of damage. If you want to deal more damage, you need to sacrifice a significant amount of health. See what I mean?

 

[Dakinara]

I am still of the opinion that a class with that much damage potential should not have a stun. If balance team really thinks ninja needs to land backstabs to be competitive in 1v1 (i actually dont think they do, if they go for more balanced stat spread rather than just go super high agi, their eviscerate and blitz dmg will be very high, and both ignore armor), then maybe could try changing the way smoke works slightly. This would need to be tested to see how it plays out, but could change smoke to 20 second cooldown, 2 or 2.5 sec duration. Then ninja could vanish more frequently in fights to try and land backstabs, and opponent would have some opportunity to try and react / predict the ninjas actions. Would also make smoke less of an escape skill as it would need to be combined with fade / grappling hook to really get very far.

 

[malikdanab]

You should also factor in the armor differences.

Regardless of that, though, you should be able to easily see how strength (and other necessary rogue stats) affects tankiness.

Example: Ninjas should need a lot of agility in order to have a good backflip and backstab. Therefore, points that would otherwise be spent in improving tankiness will be spent into agility. a lot of strength is also needed on Ninja for a good eviscerate. Endurance is needed on Ninja in order to have decent armor and enough stamina regen to be able to stay effective in a fight. Charisma is needed in order to increase the effectiveness of Blackjack in order to make backstab as effective as possible.

Holy cow, I don't have any more points to put into constitution!

That is what the current base hp values are (or should be, anyway) balanced around in regards to Rogue. Correct me if I am wrong.

Warriors are balanced, or so it seems, around the same concept. Warriors are known for their tankiness and general disregard for agility and other stats that pertain more to rogues and casters. Therefore, they may load up on tankiness and strength, or whatever may pertain to them. The end result here is that warriors are tankier than rogues by a significant amount.

I am sanguine that this is the thought process behind the balancing of Ninja and rogues in general. If it is not, then it is because certain stats are not significant enough, and are easily skippable. In this current situation, strength is irrelevant for pretty much everyone (except ninja, if you want any eviscerate damage). How it should be, if it is not already, is that if you want to be tanky, you've got to sacrifice a significant amount of damage. If you want to deal more damage, you need to sacrifice a significant amount of health. See what I mean?

What kind of build do you do as a ninja? If I where to go ninja I would do something like:
Strength: 30
Constitution: 18
Endurance 25:
Agility: 35

Even here a ninja would have great: damage, mobility, and still have 1041. Either way I may be looking at it wrong. Maybe warriors need a health buff...

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

Maybe warriors need a health buff...

Absolutely not. Rogues need a Health NERF. Warriors HP is fine where it is at the moment.

 

[malikdanab]

Absolutely not. Rogues need a Health NERF. Warriors HP is fine where it is at the moment.

It was kinda a joke comment. Keache is so adamant that rogues don't have their HP lowered, so the only other way to make it lore-friendly is to increase warriors

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

maybe could try changing the way smoke works slightly. This would need to be tested to see how it plays out, but could change smoke to 20 second cooldown, 2 or 2.5 sec duration. Then ninja could vanish more frequently in fights to try and land backstabs, and opponent would have some opportunity to try and react / predict the ninjas actions.

I like this idea a lot.

 

[malikdanab]

Would definitely be an interesting change. I like that it would prevent ninjas from running away, because with the current render distance it's impossible to find a ninja.

 

[Alphesie]

This is a great suggestion.

 

[DiastoliConduit]

Enough with the arguing, remove Blackjack and call it a day.

 

[crazydodapie]

Thing is, Ninja isn't op. This will gathers lots of hate. Here are my suggestions

1st. Warrior hp, base should be something like 800~. idgaf if its so much melee protection, its shit against casters, who have the highest dps and the ones who you should watch out for
2nd. Combine many of the ninja skills so you can get the same effect, but less dmg. For example,

Combine smoke and blind, blind part is only available once mastered.
Combine kick and blackjack into something like stomp or jab, momentarily hits a pressure point and locks up joints as well as some pain. damage and stun time scales with agil, the more points you can hit, the more damage and longer nervous response time. base damage would be like 10, with like 1.5 per point? with around 30 agil, thats the base of kick and blackjack, removes 1/2 of the initial damage.
Combine backflip and envenom, when you momentarily retreat, what better time to apply poison, however, make it a toggleable skill to shuriken or envenom during backflip.

3rd. Things like envenom shouldn't cost mana or stamina, maybe a reagent like sugar/shrooms? those aren't rare but require a ninja to keep a supply of "drugs" to poison targets. Maybe envenom can be changed to just cause a random mix of vanilla effects like fatigue, weakness, nausea, slowness or instant damage. Doesn't last for a time period, just the first 3-5 hits before there isn't enough poison on the blade to cause the effects. Have the effects scale with the hits, like the first hit after envenom will have the greatest chance to cause the debuffs.

Honestly I think ninja needs a complete rework on the silent killer thing. Most ninjas fight like warriors.

 

[Frozen_Panda]

STDs you need to realize you chose a class with insanely low base equipment weight and are getting ripped by physical damage because of it.

Also: Ninjas have 1 damage ability - Eviscerate - which is on a 30 or 35 second cooldown. You can include their backstab, but hitting someone from behind isn't always feasible unless they're blackjacked. Escape artist isn't as good as you think. The only ability I've been able to escape artist thus far is entangle, and maybe a slow here and there. I am for sure it doesn't work on any stuns or piggifys. The blind range is a little excessive and may need to be toned down. However, ninjas do as much damage as any other warrior class because, as I previously stated, they only have 1 damage spell on a 30-35 second cool down. Ninjas attacks are also reduced by armor where as heros like wizards and beguilers aren't. If you've ever played ninja, you know that their stamina costs are absurd. Eviscerate and blackjack is out main combo and costs 1000 stamina total (ALL OF IT!!!) and then energize restores 500 on a minute cooldown. If you'd like to kick/smoke/sneak/blitz/backflip after that, you're back down to 0 stamina.

TLDR: Ninjas have 1 damage spell, escape artist works on very few spells, blind could be nerfed, all of ninjas damage can be reduced by armor where as casters can't, and stamina problems with ninja are pretty apparent.

 

[Dakinara]

envenom, blitz, and eviscerate - none of these are reduced in damage by armor. I know alot of people seem to hate blitz, but at just 10 int score it does 170 dmg with relatively low stam cost. And against a target with high armor it is almost always worth using over just left clicking non-backstab.