Balance Suggestions

[Irishman81]

This week's balance changes:

Chaos:
EndlessNightmare: The duration decreased to 2 seconds. Cooldown increased to 25 seconds
TimeWarp: Remove Damage completely until skill is recoded
GreatChasm: Cooldown by 2 seconds.

CallofChaos: Cooldown down to 25 seconds - but lowering the damage from 15(+0.5 per int) tick damage every second for 6 seconds, to 12.5(+0.25 per int).
Base left click decreased by 8.


Order:
Call of Order: Cooldown increased to 20 seconds

JudgmentSpike: Duration decreased to 2 seconds. Cooldown lowered to 25 seconds.

TimeReverse: Heal removed until skill logic can be redone.

DivineRuination: Remove the blind.

Left click damage: lower by 8.


Sorcerer: Reduce Radius of Arcanestorm from 12->8.

Blacksmith: All forge skills - Swap Warmup and Cooldown (5 Seconds - None)
Bard: Add bow to offhand to fix bug

Alright looks like only this stuff got in, we'll work with the rest for next week

 

[victim130]

Reading over it, looks good thus far. I'd like to see Kick removed from bard, but a CD increase will do the same effect imo.

 

[victim130]

What we have so far, I need everyone to chime in in the next hour or two so I can push everything to Kain for release tonight:

Chaos:
EndlessNightmare: The duration decreased to 2 seconds. Cooldown increased to 25 seconds
TimeWarp: Remove Damage completely until skill is recoded
GreatChasm: Cooldown by 2 seconds.
CallofChaos: Cooldown down to 25 seconds - but lowering the damage from 15(+0.5 per int) tick damage every second for 6 seconds, to 12.5(+0.25 per int).
Base left click decreased by 8.


Order:
Call of Order: Cooldown increased to 20 seconds
JudgmentSpike: Duration decreased to 2 seconds. Cooldown lowered to 25 seconds.
TimeReverse: Heal removed until skill logic can be redone.
DivineRuination: Remove the blind.
Left click damage: lower by 8.

Wizard/Sorcerer:
Bolt cooldown 12->14 seconds
Pulse cooldown 10->12 seconds

Sorcerer:
Reduce Radius of Arcanestorm from 12->8.

Blacksmith:
All forge skills - Swap Warmup and Cooldown (5 Seconds - None)
Bard:
Add bow to offhand to fix bug
Voidsong base damage down from 40->30
Voidsong Cooldown 15->18

Bloodmage:
Siphonblood: cd 5->6 Seconds
CombustBlood: Required bloodunion for dot 2->3
Boilblood: Tick time on Boilblood down from 12 seconds to 8 seconds: Lowers total damage to 109.75+(82.4 bleed damage) for t1 bloodmage

Dreadknight:
Base left click 104->92
Soulleech healing recieved 100%-80% of damage dealt.

Dragoon:
Lunarlance: Stamina 250->200
Impale: Increase Slow duration from 3-> 3.5seconds

Runeblade:
VoidRune: Silence increased to 2 seconds from 1.5 seconds - Scaling decreased to 15 + 0.75 per intellect damage from 20 + 0.75
IceRune: Slow duration increased to 3 seconds from 2 seconds - Scaling decreased to 30 + 0.875 per intellect damage from 40 + 0.875
FireRune: Base damage lowered from 40->32, scaling lowered from 1.25 per int to 1
Base Left Click damage decreased to 60 from 65.

Samurai:
Base hp lowered from 800->750

Let's leave ninja alone for now, I can't think of anything off the top of my head, we can work on it for next patch.

@Balance Team Lets hear it, I need responses in the near future so I can get these in before patch time.

Alright, so since this didn't go in yet, I wanted to just go over it with my own thoughts.

Wizard:
I think these changes are fine, it is fairly strong and some toning back isn't a bad thing. My only worry is pushing it below other classes like Ninja, Necro and Bloodmage.

EDIT: After looking at Arcaneblast, while it is nearly impossible to get off in most situations, I think its CD may be a bit too low. Might be better as a 1m or at the very least a 30s cd

Bard:
I honestly don't like the idea of letting bard keep kick. Similar to Runeblade who had it removed in favor of Void rune, I think bard shouldn't have it. That being said, if we wanted to up the cd of Void song, that may do the trick. Having the ability to lock down any caster/healer for an entire fight just isn't counter play. Even when a bard counters a BM/Wiz/etc, it should still have the possibility to lose.

BloodMage:
I'd rather see the class altered, but that's a bit too much work atm I'd think so I'm fine with these current changes.

Dreadknight:
From the small bit of fighting against a DK, I can say that I was surprised at the dps output. Maybe it should be a shift from damage to defense, but whatever is done, the decrease in damage is a good thing.

Dragoon:
Listening to Hydro complain about this has forced me to look into the class, I'd say it might need more than this, but its an ok change for now. Maybe an increase in spear/impale's range? To better match the wiki's description (Since its 1 block shorter atm from the tests we ran)

Runeblade:
I agree with the rune scaling, but maybe not so much the left click damage. I don't think that's where the issue is. Though, the rune spam most certainly is the issue. Maybe a fire rune CD alter would be more fitting though, as a rogue caster hybrid, it should be bursty rather than consistent.

Samurai:
I can't seem to get the hang of modern samurai, so I'm not sure if I'm just bad at it or what, but if it is the class and not me, I don't think lowering warrior HP at this time is a good choice. Not really sure though.

Ninja:
I know you said you wanted to look at them later, but as an idea to talk about for now, why not remove some of their upfront damage in place for normalized backstab damage? So they need to get a good opener or have good placement vs playing like a warrior. Alternatively, maybe a small nerf to HP to allow more bursty classes to take them out when they are out of place.


Feel free to tear my thoughts apart. I'm willing and expecting some criticism.

 

[LordZelkova]

Samurai:
I can't seem to get the hang of modern samurai, so I'm not sure if I'm just bad at it or what, but if it is the class and not me, I don't think lowering warrior HP at this time is a good choice. Not really sure though.

The issue is that Samurai has the most HP out of all warriors, and pretty good armor.
Combine that with a Speed buff that doesn't break on combat, and good damage and it's quite strong. I don't think Samurai is insane or anything, but toning down its HP is a good move imo

 

[Irishman81]

Alright, so since this didn't go in yet, I wanted to just go over it with my own thoughts.

Wizard:
I think these changes are fine, it is fairly strong and some toning back isn't a bad thing. My only worry is pushing it below other classes like Ninja, Necro and Bloodmage.

EDIT: After looking at Arcaneblast, while it is nearly impossible to get off in most situations, I think its CD may be a bit too low. Might be better as a 1m or at the very least a 30s cd

Bard:
I honestly don't like the idea of letting bard keep kick. Similar to Runeblade who had it removed in favor of Void rune, I think bard shouldn't have it. That being said, if we wanted to up the cd of Void song, that may do the trick. Having the ability to lock down any caster/healer for an entire fight just isn't counter play. Even when a bard counters a BM/Wiz/etc, it should still have the possibility to lose.

BloodMage:
I'd rather see the class altered, but that's a bit too much work atm I'd think so I'm fine with these current changes.

Dreadknight:
From the small bit of fighting against a DK, I can say that I was surprised at the dps output. Maybe it should be a shift from damage to defense, but whatever is done, the decrease in damage is a good thing.

Dragoon:
Listening to Hydro complain about this has forced me to look into the class, I'd say it might need more than this, but its an ok change for now. Maybe an increase in spear/impale's range? To better match the wiki's description (Since its 1 block shorter atm from the tests we ran)

Runeblade:
I agree with the rune scaling, but maybe not so much the left click damage. I don't think that's where the issue is. Though, the rune spam most certainly is the issue. Maybe a fire rune CD alter would be more fitting though, as a rogue caster hybrid, it should be bursty rather than consistent.

Samurai:
I can't seem to get the hang of modern samurai, so I'm not sure if I'm just bad at it or what, but if it is the class and not me, I don't think lowering warrior HP at this time is a good choice. Not really sure though.

Ninja:
I know you said you wanted to look at them later, but as an idea to talk about for now, why not remove some of their upfront damage in place for normalized backstab damage? So they need to get a good opener or have good placement vs playing like a warrior. Alternatively, maybe a small nerf to HP to allow more bursty classes to take them out when they are out of place.


Feel free to tear my thoughts apart. I'm willing and expecting some criticism.

Thanks for the good comments, I agree with pretty much everything you have here. Since we have a couple days before the next patch, we can talk about ninja. I think back stab is fine right now, but I would maybe consider trying to make eviscerate only usable from behind like @Hydroking77 suggested a bit ago, but maybe also give it a brief slow after the damage. I also want to see if my suggested changes for the left clicking goes through, that will also change how we look at things.

 

[Pugglez_]

Alright, so since this didn't go in yet, I wanted to just go over it with my own thoughts.

Wizard:
I think these changes are fine, it is fairly strong and some toning back isn't a bad thing. My only worry is pushing it below other classes like Ninja, Necro and Bloodmage.

EDIT: After looking at Arcaneblast, while it is nearly impossible to get off in most situations, I think its CD may be a bit too low. Might be better as a 1m or at the very least a 30s cd

Not too much thoughts about this. While some of the classes you said might catch up to the Wizard because of the CD increase, I think a good wizard who can hit good fireballs still would come out to the top.

Bard:
I honestly don't like the idea of letting bard keep kick. Similar to Runeblade who had it removed in favor of Void rune, I think bard shouldn't have it. That being said, if we wanted to up the cd of Void song, that may do the trick. Having the ability to lock down any caster/healer for an entire fight just isn't counter play. Even when a bard counters a BM/Wiz/etc, it should still have the possibility to lose.

Thing with Runeblade is that it has the ability to stack 3 VoidRunes at once. By having Kick and VoidRune, a good combo can lock down any class forever.
Also, it is possible for a class to lose against another class it directly counters. It's just based on individual skill. Wizards can beat a Bard if the wizard knows how to kite really well and can hit good fireballs. As for Bloodmage against Bard, Bloodmage will just naturally have a hard time because of its kit. Bloodmage is such a heavy "casting" skill class that any class with more than one of some sort of silence has an easy time beating it.
Any class can beat any class; it might be hard for some classes to do that to other classes, but in the end it would be based on individual skill or maybe even gear.

Dreadknight:
From the small bit of fighting against a DK, I can say that I was surprised at the dps output. Maybe it should be a shift from damage to defense, but whatever is done, the decrease in damage is a good thing.

Dreadknight has always had an insane amount of DPS while being tanky. For some reason, people early on this map said it was really bad. I thought it was still really good even with the attack timer in. It can be kited easily by casters, but the high DPS is still there. Personally I think we should actually lower its armor down to just full iron or maybe even change one of its armor to a chainmail piece. Right now, it is impossible for other melee users to beat it, or at the very least very very hard to beat it.

Dragoon:
Listening to Hydro complain about this has forced me to look into the class, I'd say it might need more than this, but its an ok change for now. Maybe an increase in spear/impale's range? To better match the wiki's description (Since its 1 block shorter atm from the tests we ran)

Dragoon already has high mobility so I don't think increasing the range of impale/spear would be good. Dragoon has always had some stamina problems to output its high DPS in previous maps, so I think that removing Piercingstrike's stamina cost and lowering Dragoon's base melee damage to compensate would be good.

Runeblade:
I agree with the rune scaling, but maybe not so much the left click damage. I don't think that's where the issue is. Though, the rune spam most certainly is the issue. Maybe a fire rune CD alter would be more fitting though, as a rogue caster hybrid, it should be bursty rather than consistent.

Runeblade shouldn't be relying on its left click damage to output its damage though. I think the class should be centered around using Runeword to its potential to output its highest potential damage.

Samurai:
I can't seem to get the hang of modern samurai, so I'm not sure if I'm just bad at it or what, but if it is the class and not me, I don't think lowering warrior HP at this time is a good choice. Not really sure though.

The reworked Samurai we have now has always been good. People just compared it to the old Samurai a lot, so it definitely did seem much weaker. Right now it has the most HP out of all the warriors, even higher than a Paladin which is suppose to be the most tanky class at least in terms of HP. And on top of that, it has low stamina cost management, good damage, a speed boost, anti-Magic and anti-Melee skills, a slow, and good armor. So I think lowering its HP by 50 is reasonable.

Ninja:
I know you said you wanted to look at them later, but as an idea to talk about for now, why not remove some of their upfront damage in place for normalized backstab damage? So they need to get a good opener or have good placement vs playing like a warrior. Alternatively, maybe a small nerf to HP to allow more bursty classes to take them out when they are out of place.

Personally, I never really thought that its upfront damage is the most problematic. I think its Backstab scaling is the main issue. Sneaked backstab can easily deal 1-2.5 hearts per hit.

 

[victim130]

Not too much thoughts about this. While some of the classes you said might catch up to the Wizard because of the CD increase, I think a good wizard who can hit good fireballs still would come out to the top.



Thing with Runeblade is that it has the ability to stack 3 VoidRunes at once. By having Kick and VoidRune, a good combo can lock down any class forever.
Also, it is possible for a class to lose against another class it directly counters. It's just based on individual skill. Wizards can beat a Bard if the wizard knows how to kite really well and can hit good fireballs. As for Bloodmage against Bard, Bloodmage will just naturally have a hard time because of its kit. Bloodmage is such a heavy "casting" skill class that any class with more than one of some sort of silence has an easy time beating it.
Any class can beat any class; it might be hard for some classes to do that to other classes, but in the end it would be based on individual skill or maybe even gear.



Dreadknight has always had an insane amount of DPS while being tanky. For some reason, people early on this map said it was really bad. I thought it was still really good even with the attack timer in. It can be kited easily by casters, but the high DPS is still there. Personally I think we should actually lower its armor down to just full iron or maybe even change one of its armor to a chainmail piece. Right now, it is impossible for other melee users to beat it, or at the very least very very hard to beat it.



Dragoon already has high mobility so I don't think increasing the range of impale/spear would be good. Dragoon has always had some stamina problems to output its high DPS in previous maps, so I think that removing Piercingstrike's stamina cost and lowering Dragoon's base melee damage to compensate would be good.


Runeblade shouldn't be relying on its left click damage to output its damage though. I think the class should be centered around using Runeword to its potential to output its highest potential damage.



The reworked Samurai we have now has always been good. People just compared it to the old Samurai a lot, so it definitely did seem much weaker. Right now it has the most HP out of all the warriors, even higher than a Paladin which is suppose to be the most tanky class at least in terms of HP. And on top of that, it has low stamina cost management, good damage, a speed boost, anti-Magic and anti-Melee skills, a slow, and good armor. So I think lowering its HP by 50 is reasonable.



Personally, I never really thought that its upfront damage is the most problematic. I think its Backstab scaling is the main issue. Sneaked backstab can easily deal 1-2.5 hearts per hit.

I think I can agree with most of this.

As for ninja, I think I like the eviscerate change idea. Would make it an opener rather than a cycled cool down.

 

[Irishman81]

Temp post as I compile changes for this week:

Wizard/Sorcerer:
Bolt cooldown 12->14 seconds
Pulse cooldown 10->12 seconds
Arcaneblast Cooldown increased to 30 seconds

Bard:
Voidsong base damage down from 40->30
Voidsong Cooldown 15->18

Bloodmage:
Siphonblood: cd 5->6 Seconds
CombustBlood: Required bloodunion for dot 2->3
Boilblood: Tick time on Boilblood down from 12 seconds to 8 seconds: Lowers total damage to 109.75+(82.4 bleed damage) for t1 bloodmage

Dreadknight:
Base left click 104->92
Soulleech healing recieved 100%-80% of damage dealt.

Dragoon:
Lunarlance: Stamina 250->200
Impale: Increase Slow duration from 3-> 3.5seconds
Jump Stamina cost 400->300

Runeblade:
VoidRune: Silence increased to 2 seconds from 1.5 seconds - Scaling decreased to 15 + 0.75 per intellect damage from 20 + 0.75
IceRune: Slow duration increased to 3 seconds from 2 seconds - Scaling decreased to 30 + 0.875 per intellect damage from 40 + 0.875


Samurai:
Base hp lowered from 800->750

(Ninja: checking to see if eviscerate can only be used from behind - won't be in for this week)

Below are the left click damages from before the 1.9 patch - These will be applied to a gold weapon which will be sold at the exchange:
Paladin (Sword): 41
Dragoon (Shovel): 60.8
Samurai (Sword): 60.8
Berserker (Axe): 58.8
Dreadknight (Axe): 52
Ninja (Sword): 69
Runeblade (Sword): 60
Ranger (Axe): 47
Pyromancer (Axe): 56
Shaman (Axe): 46

We also need to discuss if we need to increase the left click damage of the following:
Bard music disc
Disciple Blaze rod
Pyromancer Blaze rod

 

[Irishman81]

Temp post as I compile changes for this week:

Wizard/Sorcerer:
Bolt cooldown 12->14 seconds
Pulse cooldown 10->12 seconds
Arcaneblast Cooldown increased to 30 seconds

Bard:
Voidsong base damage down from 40->30
Voidsong Cooldown 15->18

Bloodmage:
Siphonblood: cd 5->6 Seconds
CombustBlood: Required bloodunion for dot 2->3
Boilblood: Tick time on Boilblood down from 12 seconds to 8 seconds: Lowers total damage to 109.75+(82.4 bleed damage) for t1 bloodmage

Dreadknight:
Base left click 104->92
Soulleech healing recieved 100%-80% of damage dealt.

Dragoon:
Lunarlance: Stamina 250->200
Impale: Increase Slow duration from 3-> 3.5seconds

Runeblade:
VoidRune: Silence increased to 2 seconds from 1.5 seconds - Scaling decreased to 15 + 0.75 per intellect damage from 20 + 0.75
IceRune: Slow duration increased to 3 seconds from 2 seconds - Scaling decreased to 30 + 0.875 per intellect damage from 40 + 0.875
FireRune: Base damage lowered from 40->32, scaling lowered from 1.25 per int to 1
Base Left Click damage decreased to 60 from 65.

Samurai:
Base hp lowered from 800->750

(Ninja: checking to see if eviscerate can only be used from behind - won't be in for this week)

Below are the left click damages from before the 1.9 patch - These will be applied to a gold weapon which will be sold at the exchange:
Paladin (Sword): 41
Dragoon (Shovel): 60.8
Samurai (Sword): 60.8
Berserker (Axe): 58.8
Dreadknight (Axe): 52
Ninja (Sword): 69
Runeblade (Sword): 65
Ranger (Axe): 47
Pyromancer (Axe): 56
Shaman (Axe): 46

We also need to discuss if we need to increase the left click damage of the following:
Bard music disc
Disciple Blaze rod
Pyromancer Blaze rod

Alright this is it for now - lets finish this up so we can do some testing tomorrow before the patch
@Balance Team @Kainzo

 

[LordZelkova]

Alright this is it for now - lets finish this up so we can do some testing tomorrow before the patch
@Balance Team @Kainzo

Custom potions will be on test tomorrow.
For now strength restores 500 Stam, and Slowness restores 500 Mana.
They are instant for now (As in, once you drink the potion).

Thinking we can have these be a bit higher than Diamonds/Emeralds are now since you have to stop to drink the potion.

Thinking Stamina will be X amount over Y time, and Mana can be instant since Mana is much more bursty.

 

[victim130]

Only thing I'm worried about is the Runeblade changes. While it does machinegun pretty harshly, I'm not sure if nerfing across the board is the solution. Keep Void and Ice the way you have it, put fire rune's base damage back and leave the scaling you have and leave left click at 65. That's my thoughts at least.

Otherwise, looks good to me.

 

[LordZelkova]

Gold weapons are on test.
An Admin will spawn them eventually.

Normal crafted ones will obvs still have timers.

*On test they haven't had their damage values changed, so gold tools are insane

 

[Irishman81]

Changes are in - If @Kainzo or maybe @LordZelkova could push them to test sometime this afternoon just to make sure everything is good for release later today.

 

[LordZelkova]

Changes are in - If @Kainzo or maybe @LordZelkova could push them to test sometime this afternoon just to make sure everything is good for release later today.

I can do it later today if I get home before the patch and no ones done it

 

[Kainzo]

Changes are in - If @Kainzo or maybe @LordZelkova could push them to test sometime this afternoon just to make sure everything is good for release later today.

Pushing now