Suggestion Balance suggestion for Dragoon

[Dakinara]

Back on topic where Jump is concerned, I'd like for it to have a longer cooldown. If not, it needs to have a higher stamina cost. As it stands, if a Dragoon uses Jump off CD it will always regenerate the same amount of stamina it uses up. If the cost was increased 2-fold then a Dragoon could use Jump somewhere along the lines of 3 times before it can no longer sprint..

A higher stam cost could be a very cool solution. then it is in the dragoons hand to use the ability wisely - jumping after unloading a barrage of attacks would leave you out of stam and unable to sprint as a result. Jumping too many times in a row while running could also potentially leave you out of stam and unable to sprint / jump as well.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

@LightningCape


This.


However dragoons don't do as much damage output as people think they are doing and with the superjump cd being changed quietly recently you will all find us a much easier class to kill.


I feel dragoons jump and damage shouldn't be touched negatively but there armor should be changed.

I'm curious as to what you think a Dragoon's left-click damage should be. As I said earlier, I'm doing 70.1 with a modest amount of Strength.

 

[werwew19]

I'm curious as to what you think a Dragoon's left-click damage should be. As I said earlier, I'm doing 70.1 with a modest amount of Strength.

There left click is fine considering there skills on moderate to high CD's as quite a few classes can shut down a goon as it is.

 

[Templar_James]

A larger stamina cost would deter a Dragoon from running from a fight, that is settled.

On the opposite end, a larger stamina cost would prevent a Dragoon from chasing an opponent as efficiently as it currently does. Having said that, Spear DOES have a 12 block range, and a 9 block range Impale is a great option as well to keep your enemy from getting away from you.

Dragoons have the skill-set of chasing any opponent down, a 300 stamina Jump at a 6 second cooldown is just overkill.

Ok I'll completely agree with you on some parts but others are completely wrong. Hmm I'll type this later actually just because got to finish league bracke

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

There left click is fine considering there skills on moderate to high CD's as quite a few classes can shut down a goon as it is.

8, 6, 3 10, 10, 10, 9, 14 are the damage dealing cooldowns for Dragoons. I'm not sure these cooldowns fit into the "moderate to high" range.

 

[Templar_James]

8, 6, 3 10, 10, 10, 9, 14 are the damage dealing cooldowns for Dragoons. I'm not sure these cooldowns fit into the "moderate to high" range.

I'll add in a comment first off most of the skills dragoons have are garbage and would be pointless to use as it would just be wasting stamina. Most of them do less damage then an auto attack

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

I'll add in a comment first off most of the skills dragoons have are garbage and would be pointless to use as it would just be wasting stamina. Most of them do less damage then an auto attack

You know you can left-click shortly before or after using a skill, right? You have to use your stamina on something, might as well be Strike, Piercing Strike or Lunar Lance.

Also, bash, tremor and lunar lance are the only 3 skills that do less than an auto-attack. Considering LunarLance's main purpose is a mana drain and Tremor is an AOE forcepush, you'll manage. I agree Bash sucks for its damage, but an instant cast interrupt has it's uses.

PiercingStrike does 50% weapon damage, but through armor. I'll consider that one a wash, and that's conservative given its amazing 3 second cooldown.

 

[TheBrute2001]

Ill give my opinion as a wizard. Ill step away from mobility damage and armour and point out the fact that on top of all of this, a good dragoon will cancel any attempt to cast a warmup. Whether it be spear (12) or if that is on cooldown then impale (9) or god forbid they are both on cd you can simply bash. Therefore no warmups can be used against a good dragoon. Now to go back into the damage armour issue, i can get easily get 11-hit killed by auto attacks by a well attributely-balanced dragoon. That doesnt seem too good, but then put into mind the strike, peircing, lunar, and bash all equivalent, slightly below, or stronger than an auto attack, that lower the total to about 6 auto attacks to kill me, a total of 5 seconds.

 

[Templar_James]

Ill give my opinion as a wizard. Ill step away from mobility damage and armour and point out the fact that on top of all of this, a good dragoon will cancel any attempt to cast a warmup. Whether it be spear (12) or if that is on cooldown then impale (9) or god forbid they are both on cd you can simply bash. Therefore no warmups can be used against a good dragoon. Now to go back into the damage armour issue, i can get easily get 11-hit killed by auto attacks by a well attributely-balanced dragoon. That doesnt seem too good, but then put into mind the strike, peircing, lunar, and bash all equivalent, slightly below, or stronger than an auto attack, that lower the total to about 6 auto attacks to kill me, a total of 5 seconds.

You shouldn't be talking about killing anyone with armor or a dragoon with supposed "5 seconding kill on a wizard." All your skills go through armor dude I've foughten you before you know damn well that you just want a class other then wizard nerfed

 

[TheBrute2001]

You shouldn't be talking about killing anyone with armor or a dragoon with supposed "5 seconding kill on a wizard." All your skills go through armor dude I've foughten you before you know damn well that you just want a class other then wizard nerfed

Lol, ill disregard that hint of personal attack i sense and retort with the fact that i know damn well my class is strong, im just saying yours is rediculous ^.^

 

[malikdanab]

I'll show you the best bits of some suggestions I posted on the balance team forum.

• 1: Dragoon's Melee Damage

Reduce from 60 to 50 to keep it more in line with other warriors
For reference:

Berserker: 46
Dreadknight: 46
Paladin: 48
Dragoon: 60

• 2: Dragoon's Tremor

Increase CD from 9 to 15. Reduce base knock-back and make it scale with Agility.

• 3: Dragoon's Armor Weight.

Decrease from 52.5 to 47.5
For reference:

Berserker: 49.75
Dragoon: 52.5
Dreadknight: 53.75
Paladin: 60

• 4: Dragoon's Super Jump

Can't be used in combat.

 

[Zaihn]

I'll show you the best bits of some suggestions I posted on the balance team forum.

• 4: Dragoon's Super Jump

Can't be used in combat.

Right now Dragoon can literally get away from any class. It takes around 2-3 of a certain class to chase down a good one. (For example, you need at least a wizard to root them) If this is intended, by all means keep jump the same.

Nerfing Super Jump will hardly change this, right now it is on a warm-up and has already taken a hit.

Dragoon's get away from stuff using Jump. As long as jump is kept the same they can get away from any fair fight and get away from most teams based on the make up of that team.

Possible Solutions:

Give Jump Diminishing Returns

Correctly fix scaling of attributes with jump.

Theory on Scaling: I'm not sure on this because I have not tested.

Currently the best jump comes from ~ 20 agility. As you increase your agility you also increase the y velocity at which you launch yourself. If the y velocity increases faster than the x velocity, (Not sure of what the code actually does) the angle of your jump will increase, anything above 45 degrees will be counter productive to getting away. @FuturizeHandgun (Confirm the physics?)

I'm not sure if this is actually true but a few dragoon's have said they didn't really like having high agility ~30 because it seemed to "loop".

Basically: If higher levels of agility give you a jump that has a higher angle than 45 degrees, the attribute points are not worth it for getting away or catching people. Your most optimal jump will come from an initial angle of 45 degrees.

 

[malikdanab]

Right now Dragoon can literally get away from any class. It takes around 2-3 of a certain class to chase down a good one. (For example, you need at least a wizard to root them) If this is intended, by all means keep jump the same.

Nerfing Super Jump will hardly change this, right now it is on a warm-up and has already taken a hit.

Dragoon's get away from stuff using Jump. As long as jump is kept the same they can get away from any fair fight and get away from most teams based on the make up of that team.

Possible Solutions:

Give Jump Diminishing Returns

Correctly fix scaling of attributes with jump.

Theory on Scaling: I'm not sure on this because I have not tested.

Currently the best jump comes from ~ 20 agility. As you increase your agility you also increase the y velocity at which you launch yourself. If the y velocity increases faster than the x velocity, (Not sure of what the code actually does) the angle of your jump will increase, anything above 45 degrees will be counter productive to getting away. @FuturizeHandgun (Confirm the physics?)

I'm not sure if this is actually true but a few dragoon's have said they didn't really like having high agility ~30 because it seemed to "loop".

Basically: If higher levels of agility give you a jump that has a higher angle than 45 degrees, the attribute points are not worth it for getting away or catching people. Your most optimal jump will come from an initial angle of 45 degrees.

The concept behind the change was to in conjunction with the jump change. From what I've read, Kainzo is thinking about scrapping Super Jump in it's entirety. The actual way lunge "Jumps" is very different from the normal jump. The plus side of the change would be that increasing your agility would increase the maximum range and not mess with the physics.

 

[Zaihn]

The actual way lunge "Jumps" is very different from the normal jump. The plus side of the change would be that increasing your agility would increase the maximum range and not mess with the physics.

Yes, but I was discussing the current state of normal Jump on dragoon and not the lunge suggestion.

Jump has always been a fundamental of the dragoon class on HC, I believe that it is strong at the moment but replacing it with lunge would be a huge nerf to the moblity of the dragoon and they would have to be reworked completely to compensate.

Dragoons IMO need to maintain a decent level of mobility, but not the ability to get away from anything and everything.

At the moment jump is too good with only 15-20 agility. I think you should require dragoons to have around ~30 to have higher level of mobility so they have to actually sacrifice damage to get away from everything. (Going from 18ish agility -> 30 is a huge amount of attributes)

My other suggestion was a simple diminishing returns to jump so after each use it loses a small percent of effectiveness. This makes the dragoon not able to kite or run away indefinitely. An indirect way to do this would be to just increase the stamina cost so they can't use it as often.

 

[malikdanab]

I understand this is a tricky subject of making dragoon still balanced, but still "fun." The problems I find with Dragoon are fundamentally in it's skills.

In concept a dragoon is supposed to be mobile class that can catch up to anyone and make sure they don't escape. The reality with that is THEY are the ones that are escaping. Between, Spear and Impales short CD and Long range alone, it's impossible to escape a dragoon. If you then try to fight them and start to win, it's impossible to kill them since they will jump away.

I'm in favor of making jump have a longer cooldown so it's more of a decision. If you want to chase someone fine, but don't give them the ability to just runaway when the going gets tough.

I'd also like the bring up tremor and my utter HATRED of the skill. Tremor was originally a skill that had no knock back and it's damage was based on from what height you fell. It' made sense then, because simple physics, the faster you you move the more force you have. Now, it's just a troll skill to further prevent people from reaching a goon. Not only that, it's flawed due to its reliance on fall damage, which is know to be a troublesome system.

Out of the warriors, Dragoon has been the one least change. I don't think goon needs balancing. I think it needs a complete rework.

 

[Dakinara]

Basically: If higher levels of agility give you a jump that has a higher angle than 45 degrees, the attribute points are not worth it for getting away or catching people. Your most optimal jump will come from an initial angle of 45 degrees.

It is true, i dont know how to explain it from a pure physics standpoint, but i made a 45 agility dragoon on test just to dork around, and at that high agility, you can travel further per jump, but at the end of the jump you kind of stall-out in the air and your horizontal velocity drops significantly to where you kind of float forward a little. You obtain maximum escape speed at a lower agility score because you dont "stall" and can maintain maximum jump and sprint horizontal velocities.

 

[Dakinara]

Ill give my opinion as a wizard. Ill step away from mobility damage and armour and point out the fact that on top of all of this, a good dragoon will cancel any attempt to cast a warmup. Whether it be spear (12) or if that is on cooldown then impale (9) or god forbid they are both on cd you can simply bash. Therefore no warmups can be used against a good dragoon. Now to go back into the damage armour issue, i can get easily get 11-hit killed by auto attacks by a well attributely-balanced dragoon. That doesnt seem too good, but then put into mind the strike, peircing, lunar, and bash all equivalent, slightly below, or stronger than an auto attack, that lower the total to about 6 auto attacks to kill me, a total of 5 seconds.

They really do have a lot of warm up interrupts lol. I guess this is because forced movement abilities all interrupt warm ups (forcepush, forcepull do too)? Does termor interrupt warm ups as well? Maybe its just part of the system and cant be changed, dunno.

As a healer, i accepted dragoon is the ultimate "counter class" (hard to kite, lots of interrupts, mana burn), but just wish they couldnt always escape so easily when things dont go their way lol. ( i still got my eye on u 2 enderpearl @_o)

 

[Carbash]

What if we have both jump and super jump work like enderpearls do for pyros? Out of combat cd is the same as it is now, In combat cd bumped up to 30 seconds for jump and 60 for super jump. Still highly mobile but with limitations.

 

[malikdanab]

What if we have both jump and super jump work like enderpearls do for pyros? Out of combat cd is the same as it is now, In combat cd bumped up to 30 seconds for jump and 60 for super jump. Still highly mobile but with limitations.

I like this idea! Now just reduce their armor, melee dmg, and increase their super low skill CDs and I'll be happy

 

[TheBrute2001]

They really do have a lot of warm up interrupts lol. I guess this is because forced movement abilities all interrupt warm ups (forcepush, forcepull do too)? Does termor interrupt warm ups as well? Maybe its just part of the system and cant be changed, dunno.

As a healer, i accepted dragoon is the ultimate "counter class" (hard to kite, lots of interrupts, mana burn), but just wish they couldnt always escape so easily when things dont go their way lol. ( i still got my eye on u 2 enderpearl @_o)

I feel that enderpearl is a great raiding skill, however in combat if you get it off you are 100% safe and sound. In my opinion, strip it from pvp entirely, no class should have a sure-fire escape. -pokes ninja-


Forcepull/ push do cancel warmups, but tremor does not. I believe it can be toggled.