Suggestion Balance Changes

[Egorh]

Overall I like the sound of these changes, good steps in the right direction for the most part. Few things I would add though:
Ninja:
An extra interrupt is not what the class needs. Blind, smoke, fade, and kick can all interrupt a warmup targeted on you, and kick is more than enough to handle self targeting warmups (such as heals)
What ninja needs is something to deal with other melee classes besides mindless shuriken spam. My suggestion either goes to add a short stun that does not scale so that we can utilize backstab (either at the end of blitz or perhaps garrote) or possibly buffing the damage on envenom in exchange for slightly less regular left click damage (to combat a warrior's vastly superior armor)

Pyro:
The damage on dark bolt is only around 90 so a damage nerf isn't super necessary, but I can support it if we get the stamina reduction. Personally, I like the high stamina costs of the class, it gives it a "burn very hot and very fast" type style that is uniquely different from other classes "push all the buttons!" type play style. However if we are going to reduce the stamina costs, and spell damage, we will need to increase damage elsewhere (say, chaotic strength?)

Ninja:
I agree with you on this, it has enough to fight casters and squishies; it is just a matter of allowing it to better stand up to warriors. A couple ideas popped into my head

• Change Eviscerate or Blitz damage to scale with the amount of HP or armor weight the target has. This makes it so it is doing more damage to those beefy targets and at the same time not make it OP against squishies
• Or give deathmark another use, if someone is marked for death they take X% amount of true damage (piercing damage, chaos damage, whatever you want to call it)

Pyro:
My thought process to changing darkbolt is to make it more of a utility skill. By giving it 50% healing reduction it makes is a very viable choice against healer heavy compositions. That 300 AOE heal from cleric turns into a 150 heal.

 

[Ahrall]

If blitz did say a flat 20% if your target's current and/or maximum health that would be interesting. Wouldn't really effect squihies any differently, but would help against warriors and tankies

The dark bolt change of focus is cool and all, but utterly useless against 75% of the classes in the game that don't have heals. If there were more heals in the game (perhaps one heal per class a la Guild Wars) then it would be great and could add some interesting counter play, but at the moment it would hurt the class unless you are in a coordinated team fight situation (which we need more of)

 

[Egorh]

If blitz did say a flat 20% if your target's current and/or maximum health that would be interesting. Wouldn't really effect squihies any differently, but would help against warriors and tankies

The dark bolt change of focus is cool and all, but utterly useless against 75% of the classes in the game that don't have heals. If there were more heals in the game (perhaps one heal per class a la Guild Wars) then it would be great and could add some interesting counter play, but at the moment it would hurt the class unless you are in a coordinated team fight situation (which we need more of)

Right now healers are dominating conquest points (clerics, druids; even disciple and bloodmage with weaker heals) so even if 75% of the classes don't have heals it will be a strong class to take with you to conquest points (which is the main PvP source).

 

[qroundhawk]

These changes have been in the Balance Team subforums for at least 2 weeks (some of them at least; I put in more changes/different changes in over time) and since I created this list from my own experiences (and some community input) the rest of community needs to voice their opinions (reasoning, etc.).

Cleric

• Reduce duration of Guardian Angel by 1s (3s -> 2s)
• Reduce wisdom scaling on Divine Blessing (I do not have an exact number because I don't have a test server to test stuff on)

If Guardian Angel gets reduced by 1s then this skill is for me not usefull because it takes almost 1/3 of your mana away so its a choice if you use this at a fight, you need to decide if the fight is going to be long or fast, but if it is only for 2 secs and it cost so much mana then I wouldn't use it in any fights.

About DivineBlessing it could be reduced by a bit yes but it already got a 15 sec cooldown and only a 8 block range.

Right now healers are dominating conquest points (clerics, druids; even disciple and bloodmage with weaker heals) so even if 75% of the classes don't have heals it will be a strong class to take with you to conquest points (which is the main PvP source).

This is in every MMORPG if you don't bring a healer then you're ******. If its PvP you need a healer but also in PvE but that is not the case in Herocraft I hope they gonna bring that in when adventuremap comes out that you need a healer for maybe bosses etc.

 

[Egorh]

If Guardian Angel gets reduced by 1s then this skill is for me not usefull because it takes almost 1/3 of your mana away so its a choice if you use this at a fight, you need to decide if the fight is going to be long or fast, but if it is only for 2 secs and it cost so much mana then I wouldn't use it in any fights.

About DivineBlessing it could be reduced by a bit yes but it already got a 15 sec cooldown and only a 8 block range.



This is in every MMORPG if you don't bring a healer then you're ******. If its PvP you need a healer but also in PvE but that is not the case in Herocraft I hope they gonna bring that in when adventuremap comes out that you need a healer for maybe bosses etc.

Ye, I was thinking about that. The skill was not always used due to its high mana cost, but when it is used it trades off extremely well (especially if you are in a party with someone who helps with mana problems. Eg, Bard Necro Beguiler).

But in return for reducing the duration we can probably reduce the mana cost

Edit: Included a reduced mana cost in the change

 

[Delfofthebla]

Paladin

• Strike: Reduce base damage by 10, and 15 on the DOT
  • Or fix the DOT duration so it goes over 15s like it should and not 3s

As far as I'm aware, it's supposed to be 3 seconds. I mean, it's always been this way, so I kinda treated it as a short burst skill.

Dreadknight

• Change Soulleech healing if it is dispelled
  • Have it heal per tick instead of having a larger heal at the end of the duration (if it gets dispelled you still got some healing out of it)
  • Or when Soulleech is dispelled have it heal using the same mechanic as right now; the only difference is that the heal would only go off of how much damage was dealt before it was dispelled

I swear it should heal on dispel...Have you tested this?


----
Also I pushed some changes to Seikuken / Whirlwind Friday. Since there is no test server, it is untested. Additionally, I have no idea when Kainzo will add it in, but it -should- fix the "root" issue from nocheat whenever he decides to update the skills.

 

[Egorh]

As far as I'm aware, it's supposed to be 3 seconds. I mean, it's always been this way, so I kinda treated it as a short burst skill.


I swear it should heal on dispel...Have you tested this?


----
Also I pushed some changes to Seikuken / Whirlwind Friday. Since there is no test server, it is untested. Additionally, I have no idea when Kainzo will add it in, but it -should- fix the "root" issue from nocheat whenever he decides to update the skills.

If strike is suppose to be that way it needs to get a nerf. Also, if it supposed to be 3s what is the point of it being a DOT (other than the damage reset that happens). If the DOT is shorter than the CD it gets spammed for maximum damage output.

As we both have stated, there is no test server to test things. So no, I did not get a chance to test it.

@Kainzo could we get a test server up again? It really is a huge pain msging random people asking them to test stuff for you

 

[Solidze]

Dreadknight

• Change Soulleech healing if it is dispelled
  • Have it heal per tick instead of having a larger heal at the end of the duration (if it gets dispelled you still got some healing out of it)
  • Or when Soulleech is dispelled have it heal using the same mechanic as right now; the only difference is that the heal would only go off of how much damage was dealt before it was dispelled

What about long cd's or high mana costs? Maybe a complete overhaul of the class, http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/dk-suggestion.49401/#post-390734 ? Probably one of the only classes that doesn't bring much to the table in all fields (damage *due to high cds/mana costs*, group benefits, etc).

 

[Egorh]

Dreadknight

• Change Soulleech healing if it is dispelled
  • Have it heal per tick instead of having a larger heal at the end of the duration (if it gets dispelled you still got some healing out of it)
  • Or when Soulleech is dispelled have it heal using the same mechanic as right now; the only difference is that the heal would only go off of how much damage was dealt before it was dispelled

Anything going to be done about long cd's or high mana costs? Maybe a complete overhaul of the class, http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/dk-suggestion.49401/#post-390734 ? Probably one of the only classes that doesn't bring much to the table in all fields (damage *due to high cds/mana costs*, group benefits, etc).

Although lots of classes probably deserve reworks or more attention; it probably will not happen due to their being no one to make it happen. Lots of classes were getting reworks when Delf was doing everything, pushing lots of changes, etc. But without someone like him behind the wheel things move a lot slower.

Dreadknight does have a lot of damage-single target damage. It also goes very well together with something to keep its mana up (bard/beguiler) and can still accomplish a lot in a group fight with a dedicated healer. Overall it lacks in any major AOE (but so do the rest of the warriors)

 

[Egorh]

Updated some information on Cleric and Pyromancer

 

[mymcaccount]

Shaman:

-Force Totem: What if instead of knocking players up, it acted as sort of a gravity well similar to Reckoning(Paladin)? Currently, Reckoning is the only skill of it's kind, and I feel it is very strong for Paladins only.

Pyromancer:

-DragonsBreath: I feel like the warm-up for this ability should either be reduced or removed. Compared to BoneSpear or Chaotic Visions, this ability is severely underpowered. With only a 6 block range, it has a warm-up of 1 second and a slow cast. Bone Spear has no warm-up, 20 block range, and almost instantaneous transmission. Chaotic Visions follows suit.

-Dark Blade: Why does this have a mana cost? The point of this ability is to restore mana. Only restoring 70 mana, it costs 50 to use. Doesn't make sense.

-Chaotic Strength: Strength buff should be increased. At the moment, once you use Chaotic Strength, you have decided to go all in on your melee capability due to the 25 Intellect debuff. However, the 15 Strength buff is not exactly woth the 25 intellect lost. Should be an equal trade in Intellect and Strength, so that when the ability is used, it's a full dive into melee from casting.

-Cauterize: No real use for this ability unless you are mining and fall into lava. Seeing as this ability is very situational, I feel like once used, it should have either a heal or a mana restore. (50 hp + .5 intellect or 80 mana + .3 intellect ?)

Anyway, everything else I agree with True, except for the damage reduction on Dark Bolt ( do believe the heal reduction is proper however).I believe Pyro is mostly a high-risk/high-reward class that shouldn't have too much utility, and rely mostly on damage from both physical and magical attacks.

 

[HeroGuy426]

An idea for ninja: Garrote Rework
New Garrote: You must be behind the target and holding string to use this skill. The target is stunned for (2 seconds?).

 

[malikdanab]

An idea for ninja: Garrote Rework
New Garrote: You must be behind the target and holding string to use this skill. The target is stunned for (2 seconds?).

So you mean the ORIGINAL idea for garrote that some how disappeared between me suggesting it to Kainzo and Delf coding it?

 

[Egorh]

An idea for ninja: Garrote Rework
New Garrote: You must be behind the target and holding string to use this skill. The target is stunned for (2 seconds?).

So you mean the ORIGINAL idea for garrote that some how disappeared between me suggesting it to Kainzo and Delf coding it?

I am never going to agree with giving Ninja a stun again. With Ninja's kit a stun is extremely overpowered.

Shaman:

-Force Totem: What if instead of knocking players up, it acted as sort of a gravity well similar to Reckoning(Paladin)? Currently, Reckoning is the only skill of it's kind, and I feel it is very strong for Paladins only.

Pyromancer:

-DragonsBreath: I feel like the warm-up for this ability should either be reduced or removed. Compared to BoneSpear or Chaotic Visions, this ability is severely underpowered. With only a 6 block range, it has a warm-up of 1 second and a slow cast. Bone Spear has no warm-up, 20 block range, and almost instantaneous transmission. Chaotic Visions follows suit.

-Dark Blade: Why does this have a mana cost? The point of this ability is to restore mana. Only restoring 70 mana, it costs 50 to use. Doesn't make sense.

-Chaotic Strength: Strength buff should be increased. At the moment, once you use Chaotic Strength, you have decided to go all in on your melee capability due to the 25 Intellect debuff. However, the 15 Strength buff is not exactly woth the 25 intellect lost. Should be an equal trade in Intellect and Strength, so that when the ability is used, it's a full dive into melee from casting.

-Cauterize: No real use for this ability unless you are mining and fall into lava. Seeing as this ability is very situational, I feel like once used, it should have either a heal or a mana restore. (50 hp + .5 intellect or 80 mana + .3 intellect ?)

Anyway, everything else I agree with True, except for the damage reduction on Dark Bolt ( do believe the heal reduction is proper however).I believe Pyro is mostly a high-risk/high-reward class that shouldn't have too much utility, and rely mostly on damage from both physical and magical attacks.

Pyro can still be a pretty strong class without any buff. Giving it too many strong buffs is going to restore Pyro to its former glory of OP

Dragonsbreath: Putting DragonsBreath on par with BoneSpear or ChaoticVisions will not really work. For Beguiler and Necro a large chunk of their damage comes from those skills, but with Pyro you have a lot of your damage in other places.

DarkBlade: Maybe Darkblade was never suppose to have a good mana return to the user; it may just be for hurting the enemy's mana (I was not there for the design or making of the skill so I don't really know, maybe @Delfofthebla can chime in on this-I think he was the one who reworked Pyro).

Chaotic Strength: Being able to switch your 'power' focus is a strong ability and it should not come free or without a cost (the cost in this case being 90 mana and losing 10 stat points in the process)

Cauterize: It has its purpose, and although it could have a bonus effect I do not think it should be something that can win you a fight (maybe have it give fire resistance for 5 seconds after use)

 

[Delfofthebla]

So you mean the ORIGINAL idea for garrote that some how disappeared between me suggesting it to Kainzo and Delf coding it?

Garrote was an old skill from Pre-Bastion. However it was tossed out around the time Thief and Ninja were merged into one class (I think...)

For Haven, when Blackjack was removed and I was already done giving a shit, I was asked to bring Garrote back. It was not updated for attributes, and it wasn't exactly super well coded to begin with. It was a skill that required you to be holding a string, and be behind the target.

So I copy-pasted Kick, threw in a requirement to hold a string to use it, ignored the requirement for being behind the target (Because I didn't feel like adding it in) and slammed that puppy right in.

Ez.

Pyro:
My thought process to changing darkbolt is to make it more of a utility skill. By giving it 50% healing reduction it makes is a very viable choice against healer heavy compositions. That 300 AOE heal from cleric turns into a 150 heal.

I like the idea. I was afraid to make it so strong when I first launched the revamp, but now that it's had time to settle in to a semi-balanced state, I'd like to see Pyro picked as a "counter" class to healers, at least to a small degree.

 

[Dakinara]

I like the idea. I was afraid to make it so strong when I first launched the revamp, but now that it's had time to settle in to a semi-balanced state, I'd like to see Pyro picked as a "counter" class to healers, at least to a small degree.

As long as it can be dispelled by some single target support abilites wink wink. of course need better single target system for single target abilities to be that functional in large groups anyways.

 

[Delfofthebla]

-DragonsBreath: I feel like the warm-up for this ability should either be reduced or removed. Compared to BoneSpear or Chaotic Visions, this ability is severely underpowered. With only a 6 block range, it has a warm-up of 1 second and a slow cast. Bone Spear has no warm-up, 20 block range, and almost instantaneous transmission. Chaotic Visions follows suit.

People need to stop comparing "similar skills" on other classes with each other. Just because Necro has a long range version of this, does not mean that it is the "same skill" or that it should be treated the same way. This ability, from the beginning, was meant to be fairly weak, and fairly short range. That's how Pyro works. He uses very short range magic that complements his melee fighting style.

The warmup is really only there for "lore" purposes, and I'm fairly certain it's only 0.5 seconds, not 1 second. I did not find it to be a burden when playing the class myself, but if it does cause some burden, I see no issue with this. Changing the skill mechanics would be acceptable here, but from what I understand, Pyro is strong enough without doing this already.

-Dark Blade: Why does this have a mana cost? The point of this ability is to restore mana. Only restoring 70 mana, it costs 50 to use. Doesn't make sense.

More on the "lore reasons" for that one as well. However, I took that mana into account when I set up the skills. It was only ever intended to grant you "20 mana" in return for the use. You get damage out, you drain 70 mana from your target, and theb you get the "20 total mana" back. If you're already out of mana? You're fucked. This was intended. If you think this number is too low, then increase the mana / drained or decrease the mana cost. But do not remove it, and also take into consideration how much mana is being taken from your target.

-Chaotic Strength: Strength buff should be increased. At the moment, once you use Chaotic Strength, you have decided to go all in on your melee capability due to the 25 Intellect debuff. However, the 15 Strength buff is not exactly woth the 25 intellect lost. Should be an equal trade in Intellect and Strength, so that when the ability is used, it's a full dive into melee from casting.

Yea I can agree, but that skill was a test skill to begin with. I could even see it being removed completely, as it was only there as a "filler" skill.

-Cauterize: No real use for this ability unless you are mining and fall into lava. Seeing as this ability is very situational, I feel like once used, it should have either a heal or a mana restore. (50 hp + .5 intellect or 80 mana + .3 intellect ?)

You Couldn't Be More Wrong. This skill is amazing. It Removes Fire Ticks so that you don't get kited by casters as much. It removes bleeds so you don't get wrecked by Berserkers. It allows you to survive after falling in lava (You're right there!) And it's targetable to boot, so you can save your allies in similar situations!

I fucking loved this skill when I played Pyro. It's simple, and it's situational, but it's totally fine like that. There is no need to overload this skill with more complexity or benefits.

==========
Pyro suffers from being too strong with a small skillset (Similar to Bastion Beguiler).
There is no need for ChatoicStrength.
There is no need for DoomWave.
and Cauterize is a "support" type skill with minimal effects.

I have no problem with Cauterize, but ChaoticStrength and DoomWave need reworked or rebalanced. Since Nocheat has broken DoomWave, it basically needs removed unless I happen to find a workaround (unlikely due to lack of motivation)

 

[Ahrall]

An idea for ninja: Garrote Rework
New Garrote: You must be behind the target and holding string to use this skill. The target is stunned for (2 seconds?).

You have to realize that against a component player, you are never going to get behind them to use this skill
Against kiting classes such as casters and healers, sure, but ninja is already in a good spot against these classes as it is and doesn't need more tools to deal with them

Edit: Damn, Delf beat me to the pyro comments

 

[Delfofthebla]

You have to realize that against a component player, you are never going to get behind them to use this skill
Against kiting classes such as casters and healers, sure, but ninja is already in a good spot against these classes as it is and doesn't need more tools to deal with them

Edit: Damn, Delf beat me to the pyro comments

I'm always on dem Pyro details.

 

[Dakinara]

You have to realize that against a component player, you are never going to get behind them to use this skill
Against kiting classes such as casters and healers, sure, but ninja is already in a good spot against these classes as it is and doesn't need more tools to deal with them

Edit: Damn, Delf beat me to the pyro comments

I think the idea behind the garotte change with behind requirement was that smoke would need to be used to realistically get it off. So you have the choice - save smoke for an escape, or try and use it aggressively to go for the kill. Obvious wouldnt necessarily work in all cases anyways as quick thinking classes with aoe could pop you out, but i guess thats one form of balance.