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Sleaker

Retired Staff
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Location
Portland, Oregon
@Kalkyte - this is exactly why I keep pushing for changes to how the town system works. But it seems more like neither the builders, or the pvpers want to commit to changes. They get flustered. PvPers start to whine when I suggest that raiding become unecessary and towns get locked down to prevent them, and offer alternatives to fight over with rewards. Basically everyone has been QQing about this same issue for a few months now, and I've suggested ways so we can move away from having pvp be all about raiding and stealing everyone elses mats. It seems like anytime it's suggested people start to freak out, and it makes me think that a lot of the people on the server just want to run around stealing other peoples work.
 
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Location
Utah
@Kalkyte - this is exactly why I keep pushing for changes to how the town system works. But it seems more like neither the builders, or the pvpers want to commit to changes. They get flustered. PvPers start to whine when I suggest that raiding become unecessary and towns get locked down to prevent them, and offer alternatives to fight over with rewards. Basically everyone has been QQing about this same issue for a few months now, and I've suggested ways so we can move away from having pvp be all about raiding and stealing everyone elses mats. It seems like anytime it's suggested people start to freak out, and it makes me think that a lot of the people on the server just want to run around stealing other peoples work.
So what have you suggested to which the builders won't commit?
 

agentjwall

Godly
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Location
[Classified]
Recknod, you could at least try to respond in a mature, civil manner. All I'm saying is that any significant change to the way things work will result in a large segment of the population becoming upset. I agree that it's absurd for people to be so quick to judge but if we ignore them and try to drastically change the server we risk a mass exodus of players.

The only viable solution is to convince the server to accept a large scale trial of any change that is to be made so that they actually have something to base there opinions off of instead of hypotheticals and their fear of change.
 

Recknod

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Recknod, you could at least try to respond in a mature, civil manner. All I'm saying is that any significant change to the way things work will result in a large segment of the population becoming upset. I agree that it's absurd for people to be so quick to judge but if we ignore them and try to drastically change the server we risk a mass exodus of players.

The only viable solution is to convince the server to accept a large scale trial of any change that is to be made so that they actually have something to base there opinions off of instead of hypotheticals and their fear of change.

I had just had a long day of work and really did not feel like leading the thread down that discussion path.
I apologize if I offended you.
I thought the humor would make up for my lack of clarification and keep the thread from derailing.
I also wanted to keep the thread an open forum for everyone to contribute ideas an figure out solutions.
I do not want to turn this in to a 1v1 debate of any sort.
But for your persistence I will retort.

The problem with any level based PvP system is that people will be looking to get an advantage over everyone else. What's the easiest way to get that advantage? Whatever the fastest method of leveling is. The whole concept of PvP is based off of gaining power over one's opponent, whether it be skill, resources, allies et cetera.

I'm not 100% sure how this relates to what we were discussing but I think I might possibly see what you were saying?
HC is a level based mmo with PvP being the main draw not a level based pvp game.
A level based PvP game would be some thing along the lines of LoL or HoN.
PvP is the only thing you can do.

You are correct PvP is about gaining advantages.
Tactical and skill based advantages.
Any serious PvP player isn't looking for a easy win over an opponent due to leveling system, gear, runes, or Pay 2 win perks.
In fact most would prefer that these types of advantages did not exist at all.
The perfect pvp game would keep every player on the exact same playing ground with skill/tactic being the only variable.
The best way I can describe where HC is right now is with an analogy
If you are at all familiar with WoW this should work.

Mc right now is like WoW if it didn't have arenas and battle grounds.
High end pvp players that truely enjoyed pvp would be running around the world camping PvE raid entrances, Continual ganking of fresh players trying to play the game and level, and accounts constantly being hacked/all gear and items being stolen.
I can assure you that WoW wouldn't have made it far if this was allowed to happen.
So Blizzard gave PvP players and outlet with BG's and Arenas.
Does ganking and World pvp happen in WoW.
Of coarse it does.
It is fun and makes the game what it is.
The difference is the priority on what is considered "HardCore" PvP has shifted.
If someone says "Yah I got 1000 kills in Strangle Thorn."
A serious PvP'r would respond with "My 3's team is ranked in the top 10 on the server. Stop being a douche and lets see what your made of in the arena."
The idea, Which could be used in HC, is to make skilled competitive play the only real way to show your pvp worth and let world pvp/ganking be something to do for fun once in awhile.
 

Kalkyte

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
My suggestion which will hopefully alleviate some of this malicious PvP and make it more fun for all. Here.
 

Sleaker

Retired Staff
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Location
Portland, Oregon
Mc right now is like WoW if it didn't have arenas and battle grounds.
High end pvp players that truely enjoyed pvp would be running around the world camping PvE raid entrances, Continual ganking of fresh players trying to play the game and level, and accounts constantly being hacked/all gear and items being stolen.
I can assure you that WoW wouldn't have made it far if this was allowed to happen.
So Blizzard gave PvP players and outlet with BG's and Arenas.
Does ganking and World pvp happen in WoW.
Of coarse it does.
It is fun and makes the game what it is.
The difference is the priority on what is considered "HardCore" PvP has shifted.
If someone says "Yah I got 1000 kills in Strangle Thorn."
A serious PvP'r would respond with "My 3's team is ranked in the top 10 on the server. Stop being a douche and lets see what your made of in the arena."
The idea, Which could be used in HC, is to make skilled competitive play the only real way to show your pvp worth and let world pvp/ganking be something to do for fun once in awhile.


I will always refute this attempted comparison for one very simple fact. Minecraft is not at it's core, a leveling system. It is at the core a Block-Building system. So the interaction becomes increasingly complicated as compared to WoW/similar MMOs due to the majority of players not just wanting to 'level up for content sake' but instead due to players wanting to gather resources and build cool things. Often, issues arise when the two systems clash (players that want to build vs players that want to fight).

I cant see giving players CTF or MobArenaas resolving this issue.
 

Recknod

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
I'd hate to break it to you but this idea has been tossed around many-a-time throughout history. And it's most commonly referred to communism. Unfortunately communism almost never works because not everyone has the same beliefs, morals, ethics et cetera and I see it being no different in herocraft (Not hating on the CC in any way). A code of ethics that you suggested would, in reality, be no different then having mods/admins above us since whoever created the code of ethics would essentially control what laws/actions are or are not ethical. My guess is that many people would disagree with your code of ethics, forcing to them to conform, be severely hindered, or leave entirely. This would no doubt drastically reduce the number of active player on the server and would, in a way, be even more of a tyranny, that the system we already have (which is doing an acceptable job given the limitations you mentioned in your first post).

I was asked to come up with a solution on the spot.
I never said it was the end all-be all solution to fix all of are problems.
In fact I didn't even know if it was a good one.

Communism is a great concept and its only fault is the greed of a few brings the entire system down.
Communism also deals more with distribution of wealth and total obedience enforced by harsh punishment.
I would like to think of my idea more like the U.N. or N.A.T.O ?
Or better yet the treaties made under the Geneva Convention.

A collective agreement upon general courtesies that benefit everyone and the server as a whole.
I can not emphasize enough that these are not rules as in you break them you get banned by the admins.
They are just a set of standards the collective decides upon as a whole, agrees to follow to one another, and are self enforced by the collective.
You can choose to follow them or not.
If you follow the collective courtesies you will receive the same treatment in return.
If you do not want to partake. that is your choice and you are entitled to it.
But not doing so would result in not receiving the standards that the collective would receive recieve.
Constant violations of the standards from those in the collective, as well as those not, would result in variant levels of repercussion from the collective.
i.e. fines, embargoes, martial discipline, and to the extreme of being black listed.
Notice how at no point the admin would be needed to enforce any sort of set-in-stone punishment.
The admin have enough on their plates between hardware upkeep, progressing the HC software, Catching hackers, and the millions of other things we as players cannot do anything about/help with.
The last thing they should have to waste time on is a few kids acting like douches within the server rules and ruining the game experience for alot of people.
This type of collective would alienate "The Bad Apples" through diplomatic/social pressure.
And potentially sway them into acting in a less disruptive way.

Is this a possible solution?
Yes if it gains the appeal of a majority of dedicated/influential players.
It also is not "the solution" other possible solutions would have to be thought up and used along side this possible idea.

Is this practical on this server?
I'm going to say no.
This type of thinking isn't possible by the majority of player on the server.
Most players need rules that are enforced with a stick.
Even attempting to explain the concept of ,following rules on their own accord rather then because the rules are enforced by someone with the ability to ban you, would be a nightmare.

Again I was asked to throw out a possible solution.
The brief statement I threw out was merely to keep the thread an open conversation rather then a lecture by me.
I really did not want to go this in depth with the suggestion.
But just to prove the idea is not as easily dismissed as you made it out to be i figured Id take the bait.
If you have any ideas about how to improve the community please feel free to throw them out there @agentjwall
 

Recknod

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
I will always refute this attempted comparison for one very simple fact. Minecraft is not at it's core, a leveling system. It is at the core a Block-Building system. So the interaction becomes increasingly complicated as compared to WoW/similar MMOs due to the majority of players not just wanting to 'level up for content sake' but instead due to players wanting to gather resources and build cool things. Often, issues arise when the two systems clash (players that want to build vs players that want to fight).

I cant see giving players CTF or MobArenaas resolving this issue.

Mmmm I agree 10000 times over.
I simply was trying to find a relatable platform to compare MC PvP too.
I in no way think MC vanilla can be classified with any mmos out there.
 
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Location
Utah
I will always refute this attempted comparison for one very simple fact. Minecraft is not at it's core, a leveling system. It is at the core a Block-Building system. So the interaction becomes increasingly complicated as compared to WoW/similar MMOs due to the majority of players not just wanting to 'level up for content sake' but instead due to players wanting to gather resources and build cool things. Often, issues arise when the two systems clash (players that want to build vs players that want to fight).

I cant see giving players CTF or MobArenaas resolving this issue.
Umm... This isn't Minecraft. This is Herocraft. If I only wanted to build, I'd go join some lesser, creative-only server, or no-PvP server. Or Single Player. Herocraft is a leveling system. Consider the hours it takes to master a spec. What do I spend most of my time doing? Leveling, and when I get bored (or at a comfortably high level) I go build something awesome. But if I want to be able to build something awesome, I am in fact required to level first. Throw in raiders, and that's even more time that we can't spend building. Herocraft is a world in which block-building takes place, but it is a leveling system.
 
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