A Penny For My Thoughts? Mine Are Free.

[Recknod]

I spent awhile writing this in response to another thread.
So long in fact that it was closed by the time i went to post.
My intent isn't to restart the conversation or to even comment on the closed thead.
I felt like deleting it was a waste of my time.
Just want to throw my 2c out there.

The problem is that every rule is constantly challenged on extremely situational cases over and over.
Then the party the admins rule against QQ if the ruling does not benefit them.
This is not a massive gaming company with hundreds of payed employees running the server.
Blanket rules are set as an out line to work with from case to case.
Previous ruling on an issue obviously cant be logged and back referenced with the minimal staff working in different shifts and not always able to be in constant communication.

An admin broke your bed.
You are mad.
We get it.
Move on before they solve the issue with a blanket solution like grave yards which will take away 1 of the 2 ways of fast travel.
Which will screw over everyone because you had a hissy fit.

Mc was never meant to be a serious PvP game, which is why i do not partake.
A real PvP game has a massive staff crunching numbers and programing in walls so that things they dont want to happen wont.
Heros is a few people doing the best they can to put their game idea into someone elses programming and share it with you.
You should understand that before joining and for the most part should be able to self police.

If a group of people decide to play a game of pick-up basket ball at the park.
There isnt a magical ref that pops up at the court to make a call on every dispute.
The players agree on the general rules of the game and settle disputes amongst themselves.
If an agreement cant be met generaly one side will just be the bigger man and walk away for the sake of the game.

This is the best server out there right now.
If the staff, plugins, and town system were not as good as they are i would have been gone along time ago.
The only stain on this server is the "hardcore" pvp community.
Constant QQ, Endlessly trying to poke holes in the rules, Camping high traffic areas for no reason other then to f with people, griefing constantly to gain small amounts of stuff that could be mined in 5 minutes, destroying others chest not to take but to make sure the owner doesnt get, and ect ect ect.
The list is endless.
Yet sadly the server is constantly being balanced with priority to PvP.

All I'm asking is that you PvP people stop and think before you go on these giant rage tirades.
Just ask your self is it really worth the admins being forced to change something that effects everyone just because i'm angry.

 

[Brutalacerate]

About damn time someone understands.

 

[eisbaerBorealis]

The problem is, we need the PvP people to understand. And I just don't see that happening.

 

[Recknod]

Everyone has there place and rights on the server.
Im going to put out a blanket statement and i mean no offence by it...
From what Ive observed on the forums as well as general in game tendencies most offenders tend to be from the xboxlive/runescape generation.
aka age range 12-18.
This goes for all of MC as a whole not just HC.

All pc games are seeing an influx of this new generation lately.
PvP driven teenagers who have "know every thing" and will argue till the end reguardless of merit.
Spew out poop and classic game references that died long before they were tall enough to sit in a computer chair, much less play a cornerstone game and truly appreciate it.
A game is seen as a evil means to a glorious end.
The best gear, the most money, as fast as possible, and as easy as possible.
The enjoyment of putting in the time and effort to say "I worked my ass of for this gear/township/raidspot/ect" is lost on them.
I also want to add that the game development industry is as much to blame for this demeanor as the kids are.
They are all but more then willing to flip off the core community and take the casual nerfbat to a game without mercy.
In order to give these players all the endgame gear/content they want as quick and easily as possible, just to squeeze every last cent from mommy and daddy's credit card.
While the core community that made them stands by pants around their ankles, rape kit in hand.

Any ways back on topic.
When the mentioned above players get involved in a community like HC they are at a loss on what to do.
Kainzo is a hardass in all the right ways.
No items spawned. No hacking. No TP's. No buying levels/ money. No nerfbats on mobs. Leveling will take a long time and there is no way around it. Violators of rules are not tolerated. Even PMing the staff is a violation.
The reason they dont understand is because they have never actualy had to PLAY a game.
A constant question in /ch h is "Whats the fastest way to level".
Correct response-There is no fast way. Enjoy the game and the xp will come on its own.
In their brain this 404's.
There has to be a fast way.
They try mining and mob grinding like everyone else and get bored after 20 minutes.
They try flame forum threads to get things nerfed-it doesn't work.
So they default to Pking, griefing, and stealing because of the instant satisfaction of someone elses stuff/the big xp gain from Pk.
When in reality 1/4 the spent doing the above redicted into legit mining/hunting would have yielded the same over time.

Will this ever change?
Probably not.
It can only end 2 ways.
1.The Pvp community continues down this path and the rest of the community eventualy migrates. Leaving them in a 100% griefed land scape. Sitting at Hero Gates killing each other over and over again for the same recycled gear.

2.The server takes a path to a more balanced experience. Where PvP players play amongst themselves in tourneys and such, and allow the PvE players to build, mine, run the economy, and carry about their style of play with out PvP being such a disruptive cancer that kills off all other aspects of the game.

 

[Plasma78]

I like the nerfbat lol wooooot !!!

I agree, this makes me happy someone finally get it WOOOT


A nickel for you sir:

 

[kperkins1982]

This is what should happen...

player 1 is attacked by player 2, who kills him and takes his gear
player 1 organizes defenses/allies whatever to deal with it
player 2 has more fun because it got more challenging and does the same
everybody loves the pvp aspect of the game but understands that killing (in a respectable manner) doesn't mean they hate you in real life, it means they are having fun playing a pvp server the way they like

what really happens.....
player 1 is attacked by player 2, who kills him and takes his stuff
player 1 is so upset that he got killed he retaliates with trash talk, spawnkilling, and instead of getting better at pvp, they hack in some way

now here is the part we as the enlightened section of the server needs to follow

We have to not let the bad apples get to us, we can't modify game mechanics that ruin things for good players just to keep other players from causing trouble, we have to get proof of cheating, not cuss and trash talk in /o or whatever and generally be the "bigger person"

In the end, if they are a 13 year old xbox kiddie spewing nothing but hatred and offensive chat, you are most likely smarter than them so you will prevail

 

[Dazureus]

Recknod, I think you're my new favorite person.

 

[applelove]

This is what should happen...

player 1 is attacked by player 2, who kills him and takes his gear
player 1 organizes defenses/allies whatever to deal with it
player 2 has more fun because it got more challenging and does the same
everybody loves the pvp aspect of the game but understands that killing (in a respectable manner) doesn't mean they hate you in real life, it means they are having fun playing a pvp server the way they like

The part you forgot, is that only some of the members are here for PVP. This has always been a pvp server, but in the past it was more balanced, giving players more of a choice in what they do. Getting camped is not fun. Nor is being hunted. If a player like me did what you said (and believe me, I just did like 2 hours ago) they'd not be having fun when the attacked got upset about being killed in retaliation, and decided to hire 5 players to come harass them.

 

[GraRona]

The only problem with your argument that I see, is that this server has always been heading in a pvp direction and always will. If you look at it, we have 16 class specs each with a vast array of pvp skills. Then we have what... 7 crafter specs (Correct me if I'm wrong) with only 2 of them actually pertaining to building (Engineer/mason) while the others like smiths, alchemists, merchants, enchanters, and farmers are all existing to aid with pvp. Pvpers don't want to stop when they see a group of people that they can pillage for loot, exp etc. because of the vast skills at their disposal. I personally came to this server solely for the reason of Heroes skills and the ability to use them in pvp. Impairing my ability to use my skills in pvp wouldn't be as entertaining for me.

 

[Recknod]

The only problem with your argument that I see, is that this server has always been heading in a pvp direction and always will. If you look at it, we have 16 class specs each with a vast array of pvp skills. Then we have what... 7 crafter specs (Correct me if I'm wrong) with only 2 of them actually pertaining to building (Engineer/mason) while the others like smiths, alchemists, merchants, enchanters, and farmers are all existing to aid with pvp. Pvpers don't want to stop when they see a group of people that they can pillage for loot, exp etc. because of the vast skills at their disposal. I personally came to this server solely for the reason of Heroes skills and the ability to use them in pvp. Impairing my ability to use my skills in pvp wouldn't be as entertaining for me.

I'm not trying to say that PvP is a bad thing or the problem.
With the hero mod and the, I think you said 16 classes all angled towards pvp abilities, it is meant for PvP.

The point I am trying to make is the malicious use of PvP and the abilities is a huge problem.
The hero mod took MC PvP to a much more advanced stage.
Rather then taping down the left mouse button and charging.
You now have the tools available for a higher level of tactic and skill cap.
If you seriously consider yourself a "Hardcore" PvP'r wouldn't you be trying to advance your craft?
Fight others who are prepared and equal in level/skill in order to truely test your skills.
Organize PvP events to promote a positive image for MC PvP to be taken seriously.
Spar with friends and spread sheet the class data to give intelligent feed back to the devolopers.

But instead the "Hardcore" community has taken to hero gate camping unprepared/new players just trying to play the game.
Tracking and ambushing miners who have no interest in fighting.
Flaming threads with 0 data to back their claim, while they light their tourchs and scream "OP! OP!"
Organizing large groups of players to raid and grief undeveloped cities that are just trying to get a foothold on the server.
Then when they finely run into someone of equal ability and lose.
/ch o is cluttered with claims of camping, QQ, and all other forms of rage.

As of now PvP is equivalent to a group of gangbangers snatching purses from old ladies and punching small children in the face as they play in the sand box.
The PvP community needs to find some level pride in what they enjoy doing and allow people not looking to be involved to exist on the server with out the constant frustration of being "Shit On".

 

[Kalkyte]

So what do you suggest should be done to lessen the malicious intent that plagues HC's PvP?

I agree with a lot of what you have said. Now that you have defined the problem, let's solve it!

The problem I see is that the only way to regulate PvP is to add in rules. Adding rules isn't a big deal - enforcing them is. As you have said, most of the PvP that occurs is not playful, it's malicious. It happens a lot; so if rules are added to stop this kind of PvP then rules would be broken a lot. More rules broken = more mod/admin help needed.

Regulating PvP is a lot for the staff to handle. I can't see any other way to regulate it, but if you do please suggest it!

 

[eisbaerBorealis]

Hmm... I'm working out an idea or two... but unfortunately they're the "that's so crazy that just might work" kind. And since this isn't a movie, it probably just won't work. I'll try to get the wording worked out and post it soon.

 

[Kalkyte]

I'd also like to mention here that if you feel you are being harassed we would love to help settle the issue! Please use the petition system in-game to inform the staff of the issue.

 

[Recknod]

As I said in my earlier posts rules/admins shouldn't have to police people.
In fact I believe doing so would only put more pressure on the problem and worsen it.

The community would have to make a collective agreement that everyone would agree appon.
The best example I can think of is the merchant guild from the last map.
They were self regulated. Voted on their own rules. Had a code of ethics. No one HAD to join in order to sell.
But The benefits/disadvantages of not being in the collective were so great that not joining would make life very difficult on you.

I'm sure the same format would work with a common PvP understanding/union.
There may be other options.
But that is the best I can think off without personaly knowing any of the people.

 

[Kalkyte]

That would be great, awesome, perfect, every positive adjective I can think of.
I just don't see the community coming together like that unfortunately. Some people just like to PvP, and it will cause frustration no matter how well regulated. People just don't like to die a lot - and yet they also like to kill a lot. It causes this imbalance where nobody is happy. However, people aren't going to give up PvP in its current form because they like it too much.

 

[Recknod]

I think I said it in a previous post.
I do not expect these PvP'rs to change.
My goal was to simply to put on record what they are doing is wrong.
As well as to find like minded people that might possibly be able to gain a voice in the PvP dominated server.

*Side-Note*
As a PvP player in other games.
I think we should create another term for this dishonorable type of combat.
It degrades the value of actual PvP.

 

[agentjwall]

The problem with any level based PvP system is that people will be looking to get an advantage over everyone else. What's the easiest way to get that advantage? Whatever the fastest method of leveling is. The whole concept of PvP is based off of gaining power over one's opponent, whether it be skill, resources, allies et cetera.

Now onto your suggestion:

"The community would have to make a collective agreement that everyone would agree uppon.
The best example I can think of is the merchant guild from the last map.
They were self regulated. Voted on their own rules. Had a code of ethics. No one HAD to join in order to sell.
But The benefits/disadvantages of not being in the collective were so great that not joining would make life very difficult on you."

I'd hate to break it to you but this idea has been tossed around many-a-time throughout history. And it's most commonly referred to communism. Unfortunately communism almost never works because not everyone has the same beliefs, morals, ethics et cetera and I see it being no different in herocraft (Not hating on the CC in any way). A code of ethics that you suggested would, in reality, be no different then having mods/admins above us since whoever created the code of ethics would essentially control what laws/actions are or are not ethical. My guess is that many people would disagree with your code of ethics, forcing to them to conform, be severely hindered, or leave entirely. This would no doubt drastically reduce the number of active player on the server and would, in a way, be even more of a tyranny, that the system we already have (which is doing an acceptable job given the limitations you mentioned in your first post).

For further discussion I'd kindly ask that you clarify the connection between the fact that the HC team is not "a massive staff crunching numbers and programing in walls so that things they dont want to happen wont" and the fact that "rules/admins shouldn't have to police people"

 

[Kalkyte]

He means we don't have tons of devs that code and balance game play. The second quote idk, that is their job afterall.

Anyway, I know your goal was to just get this out their, but I want to fix it. I want your experience to be as fun as possibe. That's why I'm pushing you guys for solutions. I'd love to find a solution to this that is both reasonable and effective. Sorry to derail your thread, but I think we can do a bit more than just talk about an issue - let's solve it.

 

[Recknod]

The problem with any level based PvP system is that people will be looking to get an advantage over everyone else. What's the easiest way to get that advantage? Whatever the fastest method of leveling is. The whole concept of PvP is based off of gaining power over one's opponent, whether it be skill, resources, allies et cetera.

Now onto your suggestion:

"The community would have to make a collective agreement that everyone would agree uppon.
The best example I can think of is the merchant guild from the last map.
They were self regulated. Voted on their own rules. Had a code of ethics. No one HAD to join in order to sell.
But The benefits/disadvantages of not being in the collective were so great that not joining would make life very difficult on you."

I'd hate to break it to you but this idea has been tossed around many-a-time throughout history. And it's most commonly referred to communism. Unfortunately communism almost never works because not everyone has the same beliefs, morals, ethics et cetera and I see it being no different in herocraft (Not hating on the CC in any way). A code of ethics that you suggested would, in reality, be no different then having mods/admins above us since whoever created the code of ethics would essentially control what laws/actions are or are not ethical. My guess is that many people would disagree with your code of ethics, forcing to them to conform, be severely hindered, or leave entirely. This would no doubt drastically reduce the number of active player on the server and would, in a way, be even more of a tyranny, that the system we already have (which is doing an acceptable job given the limitations you mentioned in your first post).

For further discussion I'd kindly ask that you clarify the connection between the fact that the HC team is not "a massive staff crunching numbers and programing in walls so that things they dont want to happen wont" and the fact that "rules/admins shouldn't have to police people"

He means we don't have tons of devs that code and balance game play. The second quote idk, that is their job afterall.

Anyway, I know your goal was to just get this out their, but I want to fix it. I want your experience to be as fun as possibe. That's why I'm pushing you guys for solutions. I'd love to find a solution to this that is both reasonable and effective. Sorry to derail your thread, but I think we can do a bit more than just talk about an issue - let's solve it.

There is no "solution".
Best case is to find better ways of living with it.
I'm sure others out there have the same thoughts.
Maybe they can throw out a few ideas.

 

[Kalkyte]

Well then how could it be better? Realistically?

I think there just needs to be a better alternative to PvP. For example, raids could be replaced with wars where two teams play a set of games such as CTF or TDM to decide the victor who then receives an award. I think having such a system would eradicate the want/need for raids and replace it with much cooler and a much more awarding PvP experience. It would also make towns cooler because only people from the towns could fight in wars. It would also reduce rule breaking;: no need to glitch into a town, no way to bed camp, etc.