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1.9 Balance

Joined
Apr 1, 2013
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#21
Alright well here is my balance rant I guess,
Dragoon -> +6
Paladin -> +3
DK -> +4
Berserker -> +4
Samurai -> +5
Runeblade -> +4
These seem fine, but I also think classes with weird weapons (Disciple, Bard etc) should see a tiny nerf. Maybe something like
Bard -> -4
Disciple -> -2
Ninja -> Shears -5 (The shortened melee cd on top of backstab is very strong)
These classes mainly have become a lot stronger with the changes to melees in 1.9, Pyro can also use a blaze rod but I don't know enough about the class to suggest a change to the damage.

This last part isn't so much 1.9 balance but is something that I feel should be looked into. Right now healers really are not viable. The targeting is terrible and you cannot namebind. It's the same thing so skills like necro's battery which is also instant so you need to be exact to not hit the wrong teammate and waste your mana. I suggest that these changes be reverted. They just make healing not viable at all for pvp and very hard for pve.

I know that it's more "hardcore" and skill intensive to use this targeting system instead of just namebinds and in most mmos you can't just name bind something, but we don't have the same kinds of partyframes that other games have.
I'm going to have to agree with jr and dakinara's thread. I've played all of the healers with the new binding system, and I honestly really enjoy it. Before it took absolutely no skill to just name bind everyone in your party and keep them alive as a cleric/Druid, but now you actually have to aim. Now I can't speak to how viable the healers are in the current map's meta, as I haven't been on yet, but I know at least in the beta I played Druid and smacked everyone even as level 1-15. All in all these changes should stay, pretty sure @Kainzo would agree.
 
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#22
I personally need to test out the melee classes before I agree with those numbers you put out because I don't know if its too much or not enough.
 

0xNaomi

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#23
The new targeting is fine, and we can't just remove it on a whim.
All we could do at this point, if we needed to do anything, would be to make more heals AOE as jrr said.

As for weapons, we need to either get Kain to find someone to make everyone have hit timers, nerf the fast-hitting classes, or buff the slow-hitting classes.
Buffing one side and nerfing the other is unnecessary; if anything, we should buff both by different amounts, since everyone's damage was lowered when per-level increase was removed.
 

Kainzo

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#24
I've pushed the first wave of changes based on a lot of this thread.

The ultimate goal is to do away with the special weapons if we can't get them under the swingspeed manipulation.
 

0xNaomi

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#25
I've pushed the first wave of changes based on a lot of this thread.

The ultimate goal is to do away with the special weapons if we can't get them under the swingspeed manipulation.
The numbers thus far appear to have been pulled out of absolutely nowhere, and don't even cover all affected classes.
I have @lionsarefish calculating what the difference in numbers are after the removal of damage-per-level to give us data to work with.

Just throwing random, tiny numbers out there doesn't seem like it'll work, and I can tell you that the difference was a good deal more than six.
 
Joined
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#26
Before you read this keep in mind that I got these numbers out of the config.
  • Dreadknight -Diamond Axe- 34->52
Iron Axe - 33- 48
  • Dragoon -Diamond Spade- 38->60.8
Iron Spade-32-> 53
  • Samurai- Diamond sword 38-> 60.8
Iron Sword- 36-> 57
  • Paladin -Diamond sword - 26 ->41
Iron Sword- 24->34
  • Berserker- Diamond Axe - 42 -58.8
Iron Axe- 35- >50
  • Pyromancer- Diamond Axe -38- 56
Iron Axe- 34-> 49
  • Ninja -Diamond Sword- 54-> 69
Iron Sword- 46- 59.8
  • Runeblade- Diamond sword - 47-> 65
Iron Sword- 43-> 58
  • Ranger- Diamond Axe- 26- 47
  • Shaman- Diamond Axe - 25 -> 46
Iron Axe- 21->36

For bow damage I don't know how to balance it exactly because its all wonky

These numbers would make the most sense due to the fact that there is a cool down between left clicks that is in effect for these classes. The increases that were recommended before would have done absolutely nothing for the classes because an increase of 6 wouldn't take into consideration the cool down's between auto's.
 
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0xNaomi

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#27
Before you read this keep in mind that I got these numbers out of the config.
  • Dreadknight -Diamond Axe- 34->52
Iron Axe - 33- 48
  • Dragoon -Diamond Spade- 38->60.8
Iron Spade-32-> 53
  • Samurai- Diamond sword 38-> 60.8
Iron Sword- 36-> 57
  • Paladin -Diamond sword - 26 ->41
Iron Sword- 24->34
  • Berserker- Diamond Axe - 42 -58.8
Iron Axe- 35- >50
  • Pyromancer- Diamond Axe -38- 56
Iron Axe- 34-> 49
  • Ninja -Diamond Sword- 54-> 69
Iron Sword- 46- 59.8
  • Runeblade- Diamond sword - 47-> 65
Iron Sword- 43-> 58
  • Ranger- Diamond Axe- 26- 47
  • Shaman- Diamond Axe - 25 -> 46
Iron Axe- 21->36

For bow damage I don't know how to balance it exactly because its all wonky

These numbers would make the most sense due to the fact that there is a cool down between left clicks that is in effect for these classes. The increases that were recommended before would have done absolutely nothing for the classes because an increase of 6 wouldn't take into consideration the cool down's between auto's.
For reference, these numbers are the base numbers, followed by what they would be with scaling at level 60.
Since the scaling was removed, the base numbers are what they're at now.

I looked at health scaling, and (at least with DreadKnight) there was less than 200 health gained through levels.
Even if we applied the fully-scaled numbers as the base, it's less than three hits of difference in health between lvl 1 and 60.

@Kainzo
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
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#28
I still need to stick by my post to revert some of the healing changes for at least some of the skills. Namebindings weren't the cause of 15min fights, that's insanely short cooldowns on fullheals.

From what I've seen the targeting system is pretty bad, there aren't ways for new players to find how to correctly bind their skills. Also @Irishman81 I'm not talking about self healing, that's fine. It's when you are trying to target the correct people in a larger fight. The fact that you were able to "smack" people that were mostly likely new in the beta is pretty irrelevant. Your post contained nothing about the actual balance of the system or anything to improve user experience just something like "This is how it is, I like it and that's final".

With the targeting not always being the greatest, I suggest reverting the changes to allow Namebinding but require that you are facing the player. It's a compromise, because there are many people that like both systems.
 
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#29
I still need to stick by my post to revert some of the healing changes for at least some of the skills. Namebindings weren't the cause of 15min fights, that's insanely short cooldowns on fullheals.

From what I've seen the targeting system is pretty bad, there aren't ways for new players to find how to correctly bind their skills. Also @Irishman81 I'm not talking about self healing, that's fine. It's when you are trying to target the correct people in a larger fight. The fact that you were able to "smack" people that were mostly likely new in the beta is pretty irrelevant. Your post contained nothing about the actual balance of the system or anything to improve user experience just something like "This is how it is, I like it and that's final".

With the targeting not always being the greatest, I suggest reverting the changes to allow Namebinding but require that you are facing the player. It's a compromise, because there are many people that like both systems.
I wasn't talking about self healing either. I'm not just saying because of the beta lol. I've also used the new system for a large amount of last map and thought it was very helpful. If it's about the "new user experience" to you, we can add server broadcasting messages explaining how to correctly bind skills with the new system, it shouldn't be that hard. The old system just doesn't really add much skill to it.

However, if the majority of people are finding that the system is somehow too challenging for them, we can also buff single target heals to compensate for landing said heal.
 

Jrr_

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#30
So obviously we are not removing the 1.9 mechanics but it is possible that we can modify them. I was wondering if we could play around with the attack speed a little bit as after switching to dragoon, I am experiencing first hand the effects of how slow the attack speed is on shovels. What I am suggesting is that we modify the attack speeds to be the same on every class at a balanced speed. @Balance Team @Kainzo
 

FaZeAlpine

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#31
Basic Attack Solution: Increase Base Damage ___% more | Lessen Damage Per Level Scaling Accordingly

If we know the swing time difference between 1.8 attacks, and 1.9 attacks we can use math to figure out what the 1.9 damage should be to give us the same DPS as before.

----------------------------------------------

Being higher level SHOULD mean you have a higher chance in a fight. If you are a level 1 fighting a level 60 you SHOULD lose, and you should EXPECT to lose, because you are clearly weaker.

This solution lessens the difference between Level 1 damage and Level 60 damage, while still making it clear that, if you level you will get stronger.

Having the same damage dealt across all levels is stupid.

 
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0xNaomi

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#32
Basic Attack Solution: Increase Base Damage ___% more | Lessen Damage Per Level Scaling Accordingly

If we know the time difference between 1.8 attacks, and 1.9 attacks we can use math to figure out what the 1.9 damage should be to give us the same DPS as before.
1.8 and prior you could hit as fast as you want, though I suppose the limit would be 20 times per second because ticks.
Targets did (and still do) have a ~.5 second timer between being hit by any vanilla sources (arrows, left clicks, projectiles, etc).
If you want to math it out, the Minecraft Wiki page on damage has all cooldowns listed: Note that axe/hoe differ on the material.

Diamond axes and all shovels are 1s, so math would be x2.
Swords are .6s, so the damage would be around the same, but only on a single target.
Diamond hoes and non-standard weapons are .25s, but that only works against multiple targets.

In other news, TIL that lesser hoes have an attack timer.

EDIT: Swords are .6s, not 1.6s
 
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Egorh

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Jun 30, 2011
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#33
The problem with slow attack speed is that even if you miss a swing it goes on cooldown. In 1.8 this wasn't a huge deal because people swing as fast as they can, allowing them to land hits whenever they want. In 1.9 you only get full damage every X seconds which means if you spam click you deal no damage and if you take your time you hit no one.

Another thing worth mentioning is tools (sword, shovel, axe) against other things (blazerod, music disc). At the moment it is not worth it to choose a tool over other items because of attack speed.

Take a 1v3. A weapon without attack speed is able to hit all 3 people dealing full damage (only being limited by vanilla invincibility timer). A weapon that has attack speed can't do this because they won't be doing any damage to the other two.

There is a lot more to look at than just numbers and the dps when both are standing still. A weapon with attack speed will probably never reach their max dps in a fight unless the person is godlike
 
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Kainzo

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#34
Before you read this keep in mind that I got these numbers out of the config.
  • Dreadknight -Diamond Axe- 34->52
Iron Axe - 33- 48
  • Dragoon -Diamond Spade- 38->60.8
Iron Spade-32-> 53
  • Samurai- Diamond sword 38-> 60.8
Iron Sword- 36-> 57
  • Paladin -Diamond sword - 26 ->41
Iron Sword- 24->34
  • Berserker- Diamond Axe - 42 -58.8
Iron Axe- 35- >50
  • Pyromancer- Diamond Axe -38- 56
Iron Axe- 34-> 49
  • Ninja -Diamond Sword- 54-> 69
Iron Sword- 46- 59.8
  • Runeblade- Diamond sword - 47-> 65
Iron Sword- 43-> 58
  • Ranger- Diamond Axe- 26- 47
  • Shaman- Diamond Axe - 25 -> 46
Iron Axe- 21->36

For bow damage I don't know how to balance it exactly because its all wonky

These numbers would make the most sense due to the fact that there is a cool down between left clicks that is in effect for these classes. The increases that were recommended before would have done absolutely nothing for the classes because an increase of 6 wouldn't take into consideration the cool down's between auto's.
I want these back in, so someone needs to do the config or i will when i have time.
 

0xNaomi

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#35
I want these back in, so someone needs to do the config or i will when i have time.
I can do that.

For clarification, two questions:
  • Is it on just the hit-timer weapons, or on everything?
  • Will it go as base damage, or are we re-adding the scaling as it was?
I'll do it either way, gladly, as it still solves at least one problem.
Just want to know for certain how much we'll need to look at the no-cooldown weapons.

Though, who knows, maybe we'll get everything on equal cooldown. I should check some stuff (if we can set cooldowns on non-standard weapons)
 
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Jan 25, 2012
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#36
I got a few suggestions.
  1. Increase the cooldown on Jump for dragoons and backflip for ninja because as of right now they seem to get away from every situation
  2. The damage reductions on disciple and bard weapons needs to be reverted because of the buffs to the other classes left click. Right now bard and disciple damage is underwhelming. I'm currently a disciple and iv'e noticed it takes very very long to kill caster classes and even longer for classes with more armor.
 

Jrr_

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#37
I got a few suggestions.
  1. Increase the cooldown on Jump for dragoons and backflip for ninja because as of right now they seem to get away from every situation
  2. The damage reductions on disciple and bard weapons needs to be reverted because of the buffs to the other classes left click. Right now bard and disciple damage is underwhelming. I'm currently a disciple and iv'e noticed it takes very very long to kill caster classes and even longer for classes with more armor.
I agree with disciple needing a small buff on its damage, relies on smite to much but idk about bard it is a support so does it really need more damage?

I understand the frustration of dragoon and ninja being able to get away but it's always been like that.
 
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#38
I agree with disciple needing a small buff on its damage, relies on smite to much but idk about bard it is a support so does it really need more damage?

I understand the frustration of dragoon and ninja being able to get away but it's always been like that.
Previously their cd on jump/backflip was on a 7+ cd 5 seconds just guarentees that they will get away from every fight if they wanted to.
 
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#39
I got a few suggestions.
  1. Increase the cooldown on Jump for dragoons and backflip for ninja because as of right now they seem to get away from every situation
  2. The damage reductions on disciple and bard weapons needs to be reverted because of the buffs to the other classes left click. Right now bard and disciple damage is underwhelming. I'm currently a disciple and iv'e noticed it takes very very long to kill classes with low tier armor.
@Balance Team @Kainzo
 
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Jun 11, 2011
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#40
With the 1.9 clicking system, we've fallen into a meta that is more favorable to Casters/Magic classes. And most of those classes have high DPS or high burst damage. With this, Druid as a healer is in a weak spot right now. It's HoTs simply cannot outheal the damage output from enemies.

Druid as a healer excels in being able to spam heals, notably Soothe. Its heals are low mana cost and it has a spell that replenishes its mana. So you might be asking how exactly it has such weak healing. It has a 250~ HP AoE HoT, 200~ HP Single Target HoT, and a spammable low cost 100~ HP Single Target Heal. Well the important keyword is HoT (Heals over Time). With the meta currently being favorable to bursty and high DPS classes, by the time the 200~ HP heal is done (15 seconds for Regrowth and 20 seconds for HealingBloom), you would have already been damaged more than the heal could provide. Especially now since most fights nowadays currently only last less than a minute. Not only do you have to provide heals for your party members, you also have to provide for yourself. As a healer, Druid also tend to be attraction of focus in a fight. So sometimes, the only heal you actually provide to your team is HealingBloom while the rest of your heals are spent on trying to heal yourself back up.

And with the new targeting system, healing efficiency dropped. You couldn't just sit there and press your Soothe bind every 5 seconds blindly healing your intended target. You actually now have to actively look at where your party members are located and aim for them to be healed.

So I suggest the following to buff Druid a bit:
  • Reduce casting time of Soothe to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.
This is to increase its healing efficiency/output. To compensate for the fact that its heals are HoTs, Druid excels in being able to spam heals (Soothe). When it already spends a couple of seconds (and very important seconds in a fight) just to look for its intended target and aim to heal them, its usefulness in a fight drops.
  • Reduce the time for Rejuvenate to fully use its heal from 20 seconds to 12 seconds.
Honestly, Rejuvenate is one of the most useless heals. Yes, it's a nice 120~ HP heal, but it takes 20 seconds to heal for the 120~ HP.​
 
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