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The problem with Healers...

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
I played a Healer Spec (cleric) on the test server. I was level 10 - in the mob arena. It took 10+ mobs to take me down and I was only using bandage.

We're either going to do this to try and balance clerics:
  • Adjust cooldown to be longer
  • Add a warmup time (probably going to happen)
  • Reduce hp/armor of Healer Specs
There's a reason why most games require a casting time on heals - it's mainly due to balance reasons. I'm pretty sure I know how to balance it - but I just wanted to get some insight from you guys.
 

Barnubus

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Location
California
Eh, I think I'll be going dragoon, then.
The MobArena monsters don't hit as hard as normal mobs, and though I agree that Clerics/Monks need to be adjusted a little, I think you should be careful on how much you nurf them. All healers might become useless.
I shouldn't comment for sure until I see the adjustments made, I'm confident things will eventually end up balanced. Hopefully.
 

Plasma78

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Sep 29, 2011
Location
USA
i would spli the two:

adjust cooldown to be a touch longer, and allow for warmup

so when the healer goes to use it , they gotta make it count.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
As with most things - it should take skills to be good at it. We can make these things skill based by putting limits on them to make the player think before just spamming something.

Our goal is to balance all classes - a healer should be vital to survival in a group but not be able to take on 3-4 combat classes at once.
 

Plasma78

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Sep 29, 2011
Location
USA
agreed, healer should be squishy, but valuable to team combat. its not alot of fun spamming or button clicking heal heal heal etc..
 

kriskills

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Apr 3, 2011
My suggestion:
  • Make higher healing spells only work on others, i.e. Pray with no CD (That way they can still be valuable in teams)
  • Have a short CD on smaller healing spells that work on the caster like bandage, so it can't be spammed, but still is a valuable asset for healing like after a fight.
  • Group heals should work on the caster as well, but have a decent CD, so they can use this to heal themselves quick if they are alone, but not be able to spam it.
This way they fill their role as a healer, but don't have the ability to heal themselves 10 times over in a fight and make it impossible to kill them.
 

Alator

Ancient Soul
Moderator
Legacy Supporter 7
Remastered Tier 2 Supporter
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
My thoughts without having actually played a healer yet:

Magical classes shouldn't be able to wear iron or diamond armor. Looks like the only ones that have this issue are the clerics. In my mind, I visualize clerics having chainmail, a mace and a shield. Chainmail would fit Herocraft making them the most heavily armored healer while still having less than a warrior. With the change to how the Crafting line works, they can go alchemist and make their own chainmail, so that works out anyway.

As for cast time/cooldowns, high healing spells should still work on yourself, but have a warmup to them. Smaller heals should have a lesser warmup or none at all, and instead be balanced via cooldown. Smaller heals will be more of an "oh shit" button while larger ones will have to be used more strategically.
 

Diffuse

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
For skills like pray you should make them have to stand still during the warmup time imo. Make them choose between being mobile and using weaker heals or standing still and using stronger heals.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
When a Cleric can easily 1v1 a Master Samurai or Paladin and win, I think it's going a little overboard. Clerics have been OP for ages.
 

MeganPerk

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
The truth of the matter is that clerics are freaking tanks kainzo :/ I was in the arena and I got one shot quite a few times no matter how much i spammed bandage. That and some healers run out of mana VERY fast and cant wear armor already. Other than clerics, I don't know why healers have plate armor tbh... They're the healers and shouldnt be taking hits.
I do know, however, that if we add ramp up/cooldowns on single person heals that it will be absolute heck trying to heal a moving, attacking teammate. It isn't as easy as you think to heal moving targets. One mis-target and accidentally healing yourself instead, and you find yourself having to try to make up for the mistake while your party member dies.

While I think its more of a cleric thing than a healer thing tbh, it doesn't mean that I can't try to come up with ideas to make healing a more thought of subject and not so easy to just spam.

I do have a few ideas that maybe could give better functional ideas to everyone else.
-Adding a ramp up on something like an explosive aoe heal that heals everyone in the group that is in range for a good amount sounds more like it. It would slow the healer down much like eatting or stringing a bow, forcing the group to have to stay near the healer.
-Adding a healing aura effect that costs X mana and lasts Y seconds. The aura heals all party members around them at intervals during the Y seconds. If the healer moves or makes any action, the heal stops. Healing auras broken early are a big waste of mana.
-Megaman Heal bomb. Healers can charge up a heal much like megaman did with his buster cannon. While charging, they are slowed in walking. The charge will have a maximum level, and they can stop charging at any moment to escape, but if the charge was not at maximum level, it deteriorates more quickly than a full charge would. When they release the heal cannon, it blasts the target with healing powers depending on how long they charged it previously. The catch is that the heal always costs the same amount of mana. Sometimes its very efficient; sometimes it was worth it; and sometimes its a waste of mana.
-Combat heals. Allows for healers to gamble with their mana and damage output. Spend mana to purchase a healing frenzy buff. Reduces your damage by half for X duration but heals people in your party for as much damage you do with each hit. In pvp, it would be wise to kite the healers at this time, making them waste their mana and get no heals.
-Papercut - low % chance that healing with bandage will apply a bleed effect on the healer, damaging them until they use a bandage on themselves to stop the bleeding. This means that the healer would need to waste resources, mana, and time to ehal himself.
-Bandage functionality change. I used to play ultima online, and when a player got poisoned or was bleeding, they couldn't be healed. If they were poisoned, you would need to either cast cure on them with magic, or use a pandage to cure them of the poison (no heal granted). With bleed, only a bandage could stop the bleeding, but would not heal them. Once the poison and bleeding stopped, the bandage would heal again. We could make it so that bandages here act the same way, they only heal targets that are not poisoned or bleeding, but remove the poison or bleed effect if there is one instead.
-Martyr. Passive spell that triggers when the healer dies. Heals all nearby party members for half of the healers maximum hp when they die.

Thats all I can come up with atm... I can think more later if people like some of my ideas... but im kind of iffy about forums and sharing ideas atm... But alot of these spells would make healing groups easier while making the job more difficult to maximize healing on the healer. Its a win/win kind of thing if played correctly as well as making healers more interesting and fun.
 

Popeyepoop1

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Jun 24, 2011
I do know, however, that if we add ramp up/cooldowns on single person heals that it will be absolute heck trying to heal a moving, attacking teammate. It isn't as easy as you think to heal moving targets. One mis-target and accidentally healing yourself instead, and you find yourself having to try to make up for the mistake while your party member dies.

Like Megan said, its extremely difficult to heal party members if they're moving and attacking. One 'mis-target' can waste alot of mana especially if you're using chant (takes 40% mana with a 10 sec cooldown). Even in the past I've accidentally healed my opponent when trying to heal a party member, more then likely ending in death. Maybe make a togglable command that allows for you to heal only party members?
 

MeganPerk

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Spiritual gift - Heals the closest friendly target in X range. If no friendly targets are present, then heals the caster.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
I just think the Cleric class as a whole is just kind of questionable in its existence. There's already an extremely tanky warrior class with heals, so why have another, especially one that can BEAT afore-mentioned warrior class. I dunno though. Maybe knock Clerics down to chainmail with iron chest, let them keep smite and everything, raise Heal CDs.
 

MeganPerk

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Green Thumb - your attacks now heal whoever you hit for 2-3 hp. Lasts X seconds. Make sure you stop attacking your friends before the time is over.
 

MeganPerk

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
East wind - cone attack that mildly damages all enemies but heals all allies in a cone in front of the caster.

Healing Syrrum - Shoot a healing syrrum (arrow) into ur target to heal them. New healer class with a bow anyone?

cake - each piece heals 5 hp removes a debuff. Each cake only has 6 slices and can only be eatten if you are not full on your hunger bar. Anyone can eat from the cake, including the enemies. Cake does not stack and takes up inventory.

cake2 - placed cakes provide a healing aura. must eat cake to deactivate. (heals everyone, including enemies)

Holy Shock - Replaces Smite. Damages Targetted enemies but heals targetted party members.

Healing Radiance - Heals target for a large amount, and trickles the healing powers to all nearby friendly targets from original target, healing them for less.
 

Shadownub

ICE ICE ICE!
Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Location
Spire
Healing Warmups came in a couple of hours ago on the test server, and although as a 55 Bloodmage it doesn't effect me very much, on the main server I am and have been a unspec'd healer for a long, long time due to my lazyness, so I figured I should post here.

Because of the heavy mana use and relatively small heals compared to mob damage, it doesn't take long for more than one mob to kill me in the main server, especially in the case of skeles as I have little offensive power and only bandage to keep me alive. Basically, once a healer runs out of mana, he's dead, and that's how it should be, because they're basically a caster class. I don't mind removing armor from healers, or making the cooldown longer, but the warmup is sort of killing us, because when that happens, not only do healers have less offensive ability than most classes, but a skele can kill us before we can get our bandages working. Of course at the moment even the warmup itself is glitchy, but when it is fixed, it will underpower healers as a whole quite a bit.

What a healer is and always has been is a sort of defensive version of a caster. Where casters have offensive spells but little defense, healers have defensive spells and little offense. Both classes rely almost entirely on mana, and while both classes aren't as built for PvP as the main pvp classes, the rogue and warrior, they're still a fair force at it. Clerics needed a nerf and we all knew it, their consume was giving them huge amounts of mana, making them unstoppable, and their heals were pretty huge. But in the end, I think increasing mana use to the old numbers (25% per bandage) or changing other things was a better solution than inducing a warmup time. But ah well. I guess I could just be ranting.

I know that a long time ago, near the beginning of the Zeal map, healer bandages were accidentally set to have a warmup time. During that time being a healer was very, very difficult (Which wasn't helped by the fact that bandages were interrupted and stopped by ANY movement at all, including being hit, looking around, whatever D:) and I struggled a lot. When Kain fixed it, I was a lot happier with the healer class as a whole, and in the test server I've been happy with every healer class except cleric and I believe they're fairly balanced with a few minor tweaks. But I don't think this is the way that it should be happening.

Ah well, having taken 6 months as a healer and too lazy to change, I'll probably be staying one, whatever happens. And maybe I'm biased because of that. But I, like most healers, think that while we should be more focused towards support and general nice things like what Megan suggested, also think that we shouldn't be completely useless in the battlefield because you're dead before you can apply a bandage ._. I've loved being a healer so far and hope that whatever happens, that doesn't change.

Cheese,
S

@Megan - The arrow thing is epic :p
 

HollowSith

Diamond
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
The arrow healer seems tricky, but very cool. You could stay back and snipe your own team and heal without being in harms way. Very neat idea indeed. I think that clerics are deff OP. But all other healers as suggested above are well put together. Monks may be a little powerful for a healer, but at least they can stand up to Warriors/ Rogues in a 1v1. Megan even manages to somehow beat most people in a 1v1 with a monk, lmao, how does that work? :p But, none the less, with a slight damage reduction Monks are perfect, as are the other healing classes (except Cleric). I think they each should have the physical power of a paladin. I mean, they're basically the caster form of Pally's, but instead of physical resistance, they're relying on mana.

Do you think there is some sort of system you could implement through affecting all your members in your party? As in, stand back 10 blocks from a fight and use heals on your party. Maybe recovering 10 HP to your entire party for every 20 Mana? That would bump up Healers to a must in Party PVP. Which, I for one would love to see. Maybe that might be another over powered skill, but it's just an idea. Maybe something like that? D:

One thing I would like to happen is for Healers to have MORE Mana (or less mana cost) then they currently posses, just more of a cool down time. That way they can play with less spamming of the same moves, and still do what they need to do. Less mindless clicking I guess you could say. This is just IMO of course and it would require a few new cool skills.
 

kevinlive

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Location
Norway, Vardø
Let me just give an example about how healing works ;)
F. eks LoL, any champion with a heal spell has a high cd on it, and a high mana usage.
Soraka f.eks has a 18 sec cd on her heal, and uses quite alot of mana to use it.

Taric also has about 18 sec cd, and uses a TON of mana to use the heal, around 30% of his mana.
 
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