Suggestion Disciple it hits like a truck and tanks like a ton.....

[Teerian]

I use a blaze rod, so I am well aware of the damage. If a range class is coming in close to do their best damage against a class they're weak against, KNOWING what that class can do at that range, the fault is with THEM, not the class they're fighting. If you have to play safe to defeat someone, do so. Don't run in with guns blazing and complain when you lose.

As for my name being "dead", I always try to stay relatively unknown. I don't yell "GG GET GOOD" after each kill or brag publicly because I just happened to kill a few people in a row. I also tend to avoid posting unless it's something about my class.

And yes, disciples have plenty of skills... at short range. Those three interrupts/silence are all fine and dandy against someone who gives you the opportunity to use them. You seem to have missed my point that all the other classes have amazing abilities - some of them more than one - for similar situations, but no one is calling for changes on those. I even pointed out two that are almost copies of forcepull and chakra. No comment on those? Are those alright since disciples don't have them?

 

[werwew19]

I use a blaze rod, so I am well aware of the damage. If a range class is coming in close to do their best damage against a class they're weak against, KNOWING what that class can do at that range, the fault is with THEM, not the class they're fighting. If you have to play safe to defeat someone, do so. Don't run in with guns blazing and complain when you lose.

As for my name being "dead", I always try to stay relatively unknown. I don't yell "GG GET GOOD" after each kill or brag publicly because I just happened to kill a few people in a row. I also tend to avoid posting unless it's something about my class.

And yes, disciples have plenty of skills... at short range. Those three interrupts/silence are all fine and dandy against someone who gives you the opportunity to use them. You seem to have missed my point that all the other classes have amazing abilities - some of them more than one - for similar situations, but no one is calling for changes on those. I even pointed out two that are almost copies of forcepull and chakra. No comment on those? Are those alright since disciples don't have them?

Every single class should give you the opportunity to use them and last time I checked forcepull was a pretty damn decent range it is a bigger one then megabolt and quite a few skills and best of all it is an instant cast and it the pull is more effective then spear. These skills are on short cd's which is the issue here and once you forcepull you have all these skills at instant cast for you waiting to kill your class easily. The reason why nobody is calling changes on Goon's spear well because the class otherwise isn't OP they rubberband every 2 jumps and there damage is good but not the best. Disciple is a healer class and more of a support class judging from the skills it should not be outdamaging, and healing some of the highest damaging classes in the game while having 2 CC skills that either knock them back 5 blocks or pull them in to you so you can wail on them with quivering palm up and do a simple flying kick to end your fight.

 

[joshtsai]

Every single class should give you the opportunity to use them and last time I checked forcepull was a pretty damn decent range it is a bigger one then megabolt and quite a few skills and best of all it is an instant cast and it the pull is more effective then spear. These skills are on short cd's which is the issue here and once you forcepull you have all these skills at instant cast for you waiting to kill your class easily. The reason why nobody is calling changes on Goon's spear well because the class otherwise isn't OP they rubberband every 2 jumps and there damage is good but not the best. Disciple is a healer class and more of a support class judging from the skills it should not be outdamaging, and healing some of the highest damaging classes in the game while having 2 CC skills that either knock them back 5 blocks or pull them in to you so you can wail on them with quivering palm up and do a simple flying kick to end your fight.

Megabolt had a longer range. Not all healer classes should be labeled as support, disciple is the hybrid class much like runeblade etc. so the skills they have are justified, but yea longer cooldowns are needed.

 

[werwew19]

Megabolt had a longer range. Not all healer classes should be labeled as support, disciple is the hybrid class much like runeblade etc. so the skills they have are justified, but yea longer cooldowns are needed.

Megabolt might of been a bad example however some of the other skills you need to get close to a disciple to cast. Yes not all healer classes should be labeled as a support however there bread and butter if you think about it are support skills. Longer Cooldowns are necessary and that is why I created this thread.

 

[joshtsai]

IMO the best skills for disciple aren't flyingkick or any of the forces. The thing that come most in handy is getting near a teammate low on health, balancing, then following up with a chakra.

 

[Teerian]

The reason why nobody is calling changes on Goon's spear well because the class otherwise isn't OP they rubberband every 2 jumps and there damage is good but not the best.

...so... the class is balanced because one of their definining skills is broken. I think I see where this is going.

 

[werwew19]

there damage is good but not the best.

Dragoon is a mobility class and there damage output isn't high. Yes I used Jump as an example however the bold says it all. That is why they can compete with Spear and not be considered OP. I never said Forcepull should be removed however the cooldowns need to be raised.

 

[Teerian]

Dragoons also have more hp and a LOT more armor.

Edit: Speaking of armor, iron is typically easier to obtain than leather, plus iron armor has a lot more durability.

 

[werwew19]

Dragoons also have more hp and a LOT more armor.

Dragoons don't have a ton more hp and they cannot heal everything away like disciples could when I made this thread.

 

[Teerian]

Disciples can't 'heal everything away' either unless you allow them to. If I forcepush a melee class off of me and they have no mobility skills to get them back faster, I can typically get off one rememdy and a chakra before the battle continues. Depending on that class, that sometimes isn't enough.

You keep speaking about disciple healing as if they can go from one heart to 75%+ in a matter of seconds. This is incorrect. Terribly so. Our healing is not as strong as people seem to think it is. As I said in an earlier post, chakra gives the disciple themself 1/2 to 1 heart. Remedy does 2 to 2 and a half. Mend does about the same as chakra. So we're looking a, max, 4 or so hearts IF all three heals are cast. With remedy and mend being about a 2 second warm-up each, and 1 second global cooldown between each, that's about 6 seconds to get those 4 hearts back. If a melee class can't get back into the fray and continue their attack in 6 seconds, they're either drunk or were foolish enough to have been standing near bad terrain. Either one being their own fault.

On top of that, all of that healing alone is a large mana drain. Add in the actual damage abilities and you have the disciple popping mediate very fast to keep from being completely dry. Once that is spent, all that is left is regular left-click while waiting for mana/stamina ticks.

Edit: Now when we had divine word, yes, I agree. Way too much healing for the class. Fortunately, this was fixed yesterday.

Edit 2: And if divine word was the main issue that began this, why are we still arguing about it?

 

[ThatAintFalco]

Disciples can't 'heal everything away' either unless you allow them to. If I forcepush a melee class off of me and they have no mobility skills to get them back faster, I can typically get off one rememdy and a chakra before the battle continues. Depending on that class, that sometimes isn't enough.

You keep speaking about disciple healing as if they can go from one heart to 75%+ in a matter of seconds. This is incorrect. Terribly so. Our healing is not as strong as people seem to think it is. As I said in an earlier post, chakra gives the disciple themself 1/2 to 1 heart. Remedy does 2 to 2 and a half. Mend does about the same as chakra. So we're looking a, max, 4 or so hearts IF all three heals are cast. With remedy and mend being about a 2 second warm-up each, and 1 second global cooldown between each, that's about 6 seconds to get those 4 hearts back. If a melee class can't get back into the fray and continue their attack in 6 seconds, they're either drunk or were foolish enough to have been standing near bad terrain. Either one being their own fault.

On top of that, all of that healing alone is a large mana drain. Add in the actual damage abilities and you have the disciple popping mediate very fast to keep from being completely dry. Once that is spent, all that is left is regular left-click while waiting for mana/stamina ticks.

Edit: Now when we had divine heal, yes, I agree. Way too much healing for the class. Fortunately, this was fixed yesterday.

Edit 2: And if divine heal was the main issue that began this, why are we still arguing about it?

Can you even disciple?

Please tell me why disciple's shouldn't be nerfed.

 

[Teerian]

Not the best, but yes, well enough, and have since I first picked the class back at 30 aside from a short time as dragoon.

I've already told you why in many, many posts. You're welcome.

Can you even read?

 

[ThatAintFalco]

Not the best, but yes, well enough, and have since I first picked the class back at 30 aside from a short time as dragoon.

I've already told you why in many, many posts. You're welcome.

Can you even read?

I need a tl;dr mang

 

[Teerian]

Bleh. I suck at tl;dr. Probably evident by the flood of text walls I've left here. Lessee...

Basically:

-Disciple unchanged from how always has been, only 5 new levels and 1 new skill.
-Divine word gone now, discs back to old healing. Same spells, just new names.
- Discs have self heal penalty like all others. Can get about 4 hearts back in 6 seconds if all heal spells used. Drains a lot of mana to do so.
-Chakra is disc's only real defensive ability aside from forcepush which has limited range and tends to bug out.
-Bards have a song similar to chakra (only less healing), dragoons a skill similar to forcepull (more range, slightly less pulling power). No one seems to care.
-Discs can heal, but are extremely armor limited like casters. Easy to burn that healing away if you're a damage-focused class and/or play offensively.
-Flying kick silence is long, but often that length means life or death depending on the class. Could maybe lose a second off of it if balance team feels this would make things more competitive.
-Level cap increase has brought on a lot of new disciples rather than the usual 2-4 max seen in the past. People don't seem used to fighting against them.

Not sure what else. Lots of posts, and it's late. Too lazy to go back through it all.

 

[ThatAintFalco]

Bleh. I suck at tl;dr. Probably evident by the flood of text walls I've left here. Lessee...

Basically:

-Disciple unchanged from how always has been, only 5 new levels and 1 new skill.
-Divine word gone now, discs back to old healing. Same spells, just new names.
- Discs have self heal penalty like all others. Can get about 4 hearts back in 6 seconds if all heal spells used. Drains a lot of mana to do so.
-Chakra is disc's only real defensive ability aside from forcepush which has limited range and tends to bug out.
-Bards have a song similar to chakra (only less healing), dragoons a skill similar to forcepull (more range, slightly less pulling power). No one seems to care.
-Discs can heal, but are extremely armor limited like casters. Easy to burn that healing away if you're a damage-focused class and/or play offensively.
-Flying kick silence is long, but often that length means life or death depending on the class. Could maybe lose a second off of it if balance team feels this would make things more competitive.
-Level cap increase has brought on a lot of new disciples rather than the usual 2-4 max seen in the past. People don't seem used to fighting against them.

Not sure what else. Lots of posts, and it's late. Too lazy to go back through it all.

Yay, now for an argument before I do some work.

Disciple has always been strong, as I veteran monk disciple, disciple is OP imo. Disciples use around 50% of their mana when they use bandage, pray, and chakra in 5-6 seconds, but they have meditate. When I PvP, I play disciple to be as annoying as possible. I think that disciples should just cc everyone, disrupt formations, and singling out targets. Chakra isn't disciple's only defensive ability, reborn can save your ass, aswell as safefall. Also, have you ever tried flyingkick + ironfist, the knockback is better that forcepush. Other classes have similar skills like disciple, so what? Wizards and Ninjas have bolt like abilities, samurais and runeblades have similar abilities. DK and BM have a few skills aswell. If I play offensively, or get bursted, it's honestly not that hard to survive. Just chakra ironfist and you should be good. Flying kick is Op.

Meh

 

[joshtsai]

Huh I have never flying kicked then ironfisted always want to use that silence to get damage in.

 

[ThatAintFalco]

flying kick -> ironfist -> forcepull -> stun ->meditate =broken?

 

[Teerian]

And now the counter-argument!

Disciple is strong. Has been since I started playing it. OP? I disagree. Yes, we have meditate to get back all of that mana, but the point is that 4 hearts from that 50% mana goes away again very fast. Obviously each situation and each class fought will be different, so specifics are difficult, and not really a good way to determine the overall balance of the class. I kill a lot and I die a lot. That seems fairly balanced to me, especially when most other discs I've spoken with and witnessed in action experience the same.

Yes, reborn can save your ass on the rare occasions it decides to work, and usually only if your opponent is taken by surprise. Otherwise, a quick turn and a couple of melee swings/one nuke typically puts you right back down on the ground. Safefall can help and even save you, but you don't always have a large cliff or structure to jump/get knocked off of. When I think of a truly defensive skill, I think of something I can use in more than half my fights. Anything else is situational defense.

Kick+iron fist is nice, yes, but it can be a bit of a mana/stamina drain at times. Plus, in a group battle (which you seem to be mostly thinking of here), I sometimes judge it best to save kick for a specific caster/healer and iron fist for a group ganging up on a specific ally. 1v1, it depends on who and what I'm fighting.

The point of bringing up the bard/dragoon chakra/forcepull clones was just to show that others have them, but no one thinks those are unfair. Seems a bit dumb to me. Both of those classes have many other strengths as well to go along with those pointed-out skills, but everyone posting arguments here seems to only care about the disciple versions.

When I PvP, I play disciple to be as annoying as possible. I think that disciples should just cc everyone, disrupt formations, and singling out targets.

Same way I prefer to play it for the most part, but this thread seems to mostly be a complaint against disciple 1v1.

As for flying kick, I still disagree that it's too strong, but as I said earlier, I'll leave that one to the balance team.

 

[ThatAintFalco]

And now the counter-argument!

Disciple is strong. Has been since I started playing it. OP? I disagree. Yes, we have meditate to get back all of that mana, but the point is that 4 hearts from that 50% mana goes away again very fast. Obviously each situation and each class fought will be different, so specifics are difficult, and not really a good way to determine the overall balance of the class. I kill a lot and I die a lot. That seems fairly balanced to me, especially when most other discs I've spoken with and witnessed in action experience the same.

Yes, reborn can save your ass on the rare occasions it decides to work, and usually only if your opponent is taken by surprise. Otherwise, a quick turn and a couple of melee swings/one nuke typically puts you right back down on the ground. Safefall can help and even save you, but you don't always have a large cliff or structure to jump/get knocked off of. When I think of a truly defensive skill, I think of something I can use in more than half my fights. Anything else is situational defense.

Kick+iron fist is nice, yes, but it can be a bit of a mana/stamina drain at times. Plus, in a group battle (which you seem to be mostly thinking of here), I sometimes judge it best to save kick for a specific caster/healer and iron fist for a group ganging up on a specific ally. 1v1, it depends on who and what I'm fighting.

The point of bringing up the bard/dragoon chakra/forcepull clones was just to show that others have them, but no one thinks those are unfair. Seems a bit dumb to me. Both of those classes have many other strengths as well to go along with those pointed-out skills, but everyone posting arguments here seems to only care about the disciple versions.



Same way I prefer to play it for the most part, but this thread seems to mostly be a complaint against disciple 1v1.

As for flying kick, I still disagree that it's too strong, but as I said earlier, I'll leave that one to the balance team.

Good counter-argument.

In my experiences, disciple can win a 1v1 against most classes, except specs from the warrior path. Because most of my experiences are based off of 1v1s, I can see why both out points are both valid and biased. In a 1v1 disciple can quickly use all it's stamina to burst out all of their damaging skills, even more now because we can eat gems. Not only does this gives disciple an advantage do to the reticular silence time on flying kick, thus allowing disciple to wreak casters. Against rogues, who mainly have some sort of mobility skill. I have been able to out damage all of rogue's specs besides ninja. Healers are quite easy becase a kick basicly ruins them. Wariors are really hard for disciples though. Their armor basicly makes disciples do 20-40 damage with a blaze road. Although you can easily kite with forcepull and other skills, their hp just drains their mana and stamina.

Note all of this data is pre level expantion

Basically, because disciple can out damage others in some ways or another make them really strong.

 

[Teerian]

flying kick -> ironfist -> forcepull -> stun ->meditate =broken?

=unreliable.

If you're going to flying kick offensively like that, seems silly to knock your target away and lose damage time unless you have them set up to take a large fall. No different from a dragoon tremoring people off of a cliff. That's using terrain as a tactical advantage rather than class balance issues.

But let's say we do use that combo. I suppose it could produce some damage. The only two problems are:

A) Forcepull often has targeting issues, especially on moving opponents. Sometimes doesn't do a full pull (though this seems rarely as of late).

B) Once the combo is done, you have to repeat it once more if your target is still alive. That doesn't seem like it would be enough to kill any of the warrior paths. Maybe not the healer paths either. Some of the rogue paths could survive it. If they survive the second assault (which I'm very sure all warriors would at the very least), you are now completely spent.

If it's a one-time 1v1, congratulations. You win. However, if anyone else stumbles upon you within the next couple of minutes, you either die, run like hell, or have a long and drawn-out fight that may eventually turn 2v1 when the first victim returns from the graveyard. If it's a group fight, you just burned all you had to take down one person rather than supporting your group like a good disciple is meant to.

That example actually leads me to a question. Are most of you basing your assumptions that disciples are too strong on 1v1 arena battles?