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Suggestion Cleric Offensive/Defensive Skill Changes

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
Skill name: Definition of Prefix to coincide with Heroes Cleric theme
Sacred Infusion,
-Connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration: "sacred rites".
Sacramental Infusion,
-A sacrament is a sacred rite recognized as of particular importance
Sanctified Infusion,
-Sanctification is the act or process of acquiring sanctity, of being made or becoming holy.

The skill I would like introduced involves converting Cleric's "holy power" into offensive power, like a "stance" that would slowly drain mana on each attack, seperate from Might, or stacking with the effects of Might, this would make mana management more difficult so the idea is to change from a strict healer perspective to a divine warrior, type. Different from paladins, who seek out and hunt evil to smite then in the name of their god, Cleric's infuse themselves with the power of the sacred, and holy. Becoming divinity itself in the process, the right hand of god.

Skill Mechanics
Essentially all 3 skills you would unlock at lvl 1 cleric, level 18 cleric, and lvl 45 cleric
They'd all do the same thing but scale differently, and is replaced by the later version (to indicate the power level of the stance.)

(1) Sacred Infusion - Converts 1 mana to an additional 10 damage on successful attacks. This 10 damage bypasses armor and is considered magical. This would scale to 1.5 mana, or 15 holy damage by lvl 15. Level 15-18 would have no difference.

(15 levels to scale 0.5 mana, means (0.0333)*10 or every 3 levels you gain 1 damage till 15)

(18) Sacramental Infusion - Converts 2 mana to an additional 20 damage on successful attacks. This 20 damage bypasses armor and is considered magical. This would scale to 3.0 mana, or 30 holy damage by Level 38. Level 38-45 would have no difference.

(20 levels to scale 1.0 mana, means (0.05)*10 or every 2 levels you gain 1 damage)

(45) Sanctified Infusion - Converts 3.5 mana to an additional 35 damage on successful attacks. This 35 damage bypasses armor and is considered magical. This would scale to 5 mana, or 50 holy damage by level 60.

(15 levels to scale 1.5 mana, means (0.1)&10 or every 1 level you gain 1 damage)

Thing's to think about:
Now keep in mind you have around 200 mana, so 5 mana per swing can easily cost you 50 mana for 250 damage. 5*5 =25*10 =250. This means the near limit of this offense places you around 1,000 damage. This is in no way 'overpowered' I believe. I just gave it some thought and this seemed like a cool skill to help us solo and kill mobs without relying on smite which has a relatively long cooldown for only 100 damage. As a final note, these damage bonuses would only be really efficient at 45-60. Which should be not be considered overpowered for a near max, or max level Cleric.

Also, for developers, keep in mind you do not want a skill like this to spam on your target every swing, it only needs to deduct mana, and deal damage when your swing actually counts, and the target isn't invulnerable.

Damage Stacking:
This would stack in one of two ways or not at all. I'll use a diamond hoe as reference:
Diamond Hoe: 33
Diamond Hoe w/ Might: 41

Stacking 1: Static (only apply Might to physical damage)
Diamond Hoe w/ Might: 41 Phys. Dmg + 15-50 Holy Dmg
56 to 91 Mixed Damage

Stacking 2: Linear (Apply Might individually to each set of damage)
Diamond Hoe w/ Might: 41 Phys. Dmg + 18.75-62.5 Holy Dmg w/ Might
59.75 to 103.5 Mixed Damage

Stacking 3: Dynamic (the complicated one)
If holy damage is >34. Then Might is applied to your Holy Damage since it is and would scale higher, and would then no longer be applied to your Physical Damage which is 33 without might.

This would give 2 dynamic ranges of damage with different amounts of mitigated armor.
41 Physical Damage + 15-30 Holy Damage (since you cap at level 38 w/ Sacramental Infusion) which means 56-71 damage (41 of which affected by armor)
33 Physical Damage + 43.75-62.5 Holy Damage. (since you start at level 45, and go to 60 w/ Sanctified Infusion) which means 76.75-95.5 total Damage. (33 of which affected by armor)

Stacking 4: Conversion w/ No Might Benefit (nerf us to give us this skill, option)
Diamond Hoe: (33 + 15-50) = 48-83 Holy Damage

Stacking 5: Conversion w/ Might (completely buff our dmg to bypass armor)
Diamond Hoe: (33 + 15-50) x 1.25 = 60-103.75 Holy Damage

Notes
It is important to note here my math is a little off; Diamond Hoe's do 33 damage x 1.25% with might is actually 41.25 damage, however it's rounded down. So, this accounts for the discrepancies (listed above) between Stacking 2: and Stacking 5: methodology. Also, Part of 2 is physical. 5 Is purely Holy/Magical Damage.

I would like to point out that I really like the Stacking 3: method because that means our damage would still be partially mitigated by armor, but it would scale to benefit us better by only applying might to our strongest damage source, so after 45 that becomes holy dmg if we have our Infusion up. For you skimming the text, this doesn't mean it's the most OP. Stacking 5: Conversion w/ Might is the most OP way to make this skill work.

Testing, Feel of Cleric pvp/pve
Also, I feel as if after mitigated damage this would be about 70 dmg on armored targets, which is only a small increase on what it already is. Rogues and other classes typically swing at me for 140+ before mitigation w/ might. So they're still hitting a lot harder and this shouldn't make us OP after taking into consideration it is draining our mana with each hit, which means we get less smites, less heals, and less survivability. This is only to balance our offense out to make us be able to stand our ground.

Currently, Clerics, if trapped into a 1v1 will die with just melee'ing and smiting. Even if I sat there and spammed heals, we'd still die.

There is no win scenario, where if we did more damage with this new skillset we could stand our ground so they'd at least have to use skills to interupt heals or completely silence us from using smite, among other things. Essentially, offensively this would make us a tougher to kill target by making it so you can't just come beat us to death with no skill or worry of collapsing to their melee damage. Even if it's as low or near typical warrior damage. It would be significantly more than the 33 or 41 we deal currently and still significantly less than DPS classes. (We do have armor and I have taken this in account to the math I've listed above.)

I also feel as if in PVE we're limited when fighting packs of monsters, we only have Smite on cooldown which will drain our mana, and then no other form of offense except a low-dmg melee which can't kill more than one or two monsters at a time before you're overrun. It's slightly too low, but at the cost of healing in PVE this is alright, although with a mana to damage option this would make us slightly more on par with other classes.

Drainsoul is a great example of why I feel this change is unique to Clerics. Because Drainsoul deals X damage and heals Y health (effectively stealing it, but more importantly doubling the effect by making it two fold.) Also, the vampiric style of this doesn't fit in with Cleric which is why I believe the new Infusion skills I've listed above would be a fantastic addition to Cleric. You could even remove smite, or leave it in so we could use even more mana to damage, while infusion is up, and smiting, we would burn through a lot of mana, and still only do relatively small damage compared to combos from every other DPS class in the game.

Theorycrafting
Theoretically, with Stacking 3 mechanics and smite spam as a Max Level 60 Cleric you could deal 95.5 Mixed damage + 100 damage in one hit , and then only 95.5 Mixed damage in melee after the internal invulnerability wears off from being hit until smite comes back off of cool-down. This would put us below all casters and rogues specs in burst/effective dps. Remember, part of this is mitigated. However, I feel as if this change might make nooby casters who do not Kite or run and attack die easier to a max Cleric. Also, I feel as if warriors might complain because our damage should be on par (from what I know) with specced warriors, though I do not know their damaging skills enough to tell for sure. I typically only fight Rogues, Casters, or Bloodmage/Disciples.

Also, I do not know without testing if Smite bypasses armor, though I think it does.
 

Aburido_burrito

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Location
Pony land
Skill name: Definition of Prefix
Sacred Infusion,
-Connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration: "sacred rites".
Sacramental Infusion,
-A sacrament is a sacred rite recognized as of particular importance

Sanctified Infusion,
-Sanctification is the act or process of acquiring sanctity, of being made or becoming holy.


The skill I would like introduced involves converting Cleric's "holy power" into offensive power, like a "stance" that would slowly drain mana on each attack, seperate from Might, or stacking with the effects of Might, this would make mana management more difficult so the idea is to change from a strict healer perspective to a divine warrior, type. Different from paladins, who seek out and hunt evil to smite then in the name of their god, Cleric's infuse themselves with the power of the sacred, and holy. Becoming divinity itself in the process, the right hand of god.

Essentially all 3 skills you would unlock at lvl 1 cleric, level 18 cleric, and lvl 45 cleric
They'd all do the same thing but scale differently, and is replaced by the later version (to indicate the power level of the stance.)

(1) Sacred Infusion - Converts 1 mana to an additional 10 damage on successful attacks. This 10 damage bypasses armor and is considered magical. This would scale to 1.5 mana, or 15 holy damage by lvl 15. Level 15-18 would have no difference.

(15 levels to scale 0.5 mana, means (0.0333)*10 or every 3 levels you gain 1 damage till 15)

(18) Sacramental Infusion - Converts 2 mana to an additional 20 damage on successful attacks. This 20 damage bypasses armor and is considered magical. This would scale to 3.0 mana, or 30 holy damage by Level 38. Level 38-45 would have no difference.

(20 levels to scale 1.0 mana, means (0.05)*10 or every 2 levels you gain 1 damage)

(45) Sanctified Infusion - Converts 3.5 mana to an additional 35 damage on successful attacks. This 35 damage bypasses armor and is considered magical. This would scale to 5 mana, or 50 holy damage by level 60.

(15 levels to scale 1.5 mana, means (0.1)&10 or every 1 level you gain 1 damage)

Thing's to think about:
Now keep in mind you have around 200 mana, so 5 mana per swing can easily cost you 50 mana for 250 damage. 5*5 =25*10 =250. This means the near limit of this offense places you around 1,000 damage. This is in no way 'overpowered' I believe. I just gave it some thought and this seemed like a cool skill to help us solo and kill mobs without relying on smite which has a relatively long cooldown for only 100 damage. As a final note, these damage bonuses would only be really efficient at 45-60. Which should be not be considered overpowered for a near max, or max level Cleric.

Damage Stacking:
This would stack in one of two ways or not at all. I'll use a diamond hoe as reference. And Max level infusion.
Diamond Hoe: 33

Stacking 1: *not at all
Diamond Hoe w/ Might: 41 + PLUS holy dmg
Stacking 2: *might scales both but physical is still deduced by armor
Diamond Hoe w/ Might: 41 + PLUS (holy dmg + might's benefit)
Stacking 3: *might has no effect on the new damage type/offensive and instead it's all bypassing armor.
The skill would add and convert weapon damage to being completely holy damage and then apply might.

there's 2 more ways to look at it which I will explain in an edit. Going to dinner brb!
First, its a cleric. Not meant to do damage its supposed to be a support. Second, smite is an instant 100 damage, you should have enough mana to smite and heal yourself.
 

Dsawemd

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Healer class. If anything in healer, bloodmage and disciple should be dealing some damage. Every class cant be dps especially when they heal/invuln.
 

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
bloodmage and disciple both have more offense than cleric.

If you have suggestions which are unique in regards to mine for these classes to take on a low-dps situation instead of only healing to make them more viable then you should post your suggestion instead of making that your excuse on mine. Thank you.
 

Barnubus

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Location
California
tl:dr
I'm a Cleric, but I agree with Dsaw and Aburido: Cleric is a healer, and should ONLY be support. They have might, smite, and have smack people around with a hoe, they don't need more if you're playing the class as it should be: support.
 

Egorh

Outcast
Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Ok so I didn't bother to read it.
If there is any offensive 'white mage' skill @Kainzo would approve of would be either Aera, or holy.
Aera being a small group heal (about around chakra), speeding up ur party in the radius for a short time and causing some type of distortion to enemies in the radius.

Holy causing a large amount of magic damage on a long CD with a warmup.
If people connect Final fantasy and HC you can tell Kainzo grabbed lots of ideas from final fantasy. In most final fantasys the white mage will get 1 or 2 offensive magic (usually having to do with wind damage or light damage (holy damage))
I just threw these out there

But atm cleric is powerful as a healer. You can spam smite and with might your hoe does decent damage. You can invuln and do some knockback combos then heal. Really cleric's offensive side is where it should be.
 

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
tl:dr
I'm a Cleric, but I agree with Dsaw and Aburido: Cleric is a healer, and should ONLY be support. They have might, smite, and have smack people around with a hoe, they don't need more if you're playing the class as it should be: support.

Why would I play a class that can't defend itself against anything? This is why I quit beguiler after the initial nerfs before it got fixed again. This is why I will probably quit cleric if it resorts to solely being an underpowered healer.

I could say buff the heals but then we'd be invincible, and take too long to kill. Right now, like I said, most damage dealing classes, most all of them actually, can simply kill us where we stand. Our heals are useless until we get groupheal and fullheal and those are very very situational and easy to lock down or just damage right through it.

Smite is underpowered for the damage it does and I think it still costs too much mana. The only way I stand a chance as a cleric is in fights where the dps hit and run me allowing me time to heal. In any stand off at all, I die.

Even against other support who simply have better skills to use, more dynamic skills to use, or simply more maneuverability than a Cleric.

We can be outrun by just about anyone. haha. The other complaint I have with it is that the heals take too long to finish casting, they should cast 0.5 seconds faster. Bandage should be instant, since it has a cooldown anyway, Pray and Chant should be .5 seconds faster cast rate. Again, this is down that road where you buff a class so it's too hard to kill and it simply becomes a tank.

I think it should be balanced to actually have some form of low dps output (in comparison) and on the side have heals.


Maybe even a second skill that converts damage to healing from holy damage Clerics deal. Like a Disc priest from WoW. So, when we smack people every 1 second, we heal our party, and ourselves for 15-50 depending on mechanics and whatnot. That'd also be interesting seeing as how then might if applied correctly in mechanics could buff that to 16-63. Then we'd be an up front and personal support class that's actually more unique in playstyle.

No one likes playing the healer in the back, especially one with only GroupHeal as it's primary group healing. That second skill could have a high cost like both costing and reducing your max mana by 50 as long as it's "toggled" and then make smite, and infusion attacks generate healing for an additional 20 or 25% mana cost.

Since you guys want to complain without actually adding constructive comments. I'll just nerf and buff my own suggestion.

How about Clerics get

Adding:
Level 1
Heal Instant Cast, replaces Bandage, same healing, same cooldown. (can't be interupted, can be silenced)
Sacred Infusion - see above Orig. Post.
Level 11 - Utility healer/dps role skill
Divinity Healing Aura - converts Infusion based damage into group healing within 10 radius, adds 1 mana to the cost of infusion without increasing the damage bonus. *This could be changed to a % like adds %50. Making this skill scale dynamically down in usefulness in exchange for more powerful AoE healing at 60. It'd be better if it started at like 50% and scaled down as you went up in level, so that it was linear or at least more balanced.
Level 18
Sacremental Infusion - one step up from Sacred Infusion.
Level 31 - Utility healer/dps role skill
Divinity Aura - converts Infusion based damage into single target healing within 5 radius, adds 2 mana to the cost of infusion without increasing the damage bonus. *tank healing*
Level 45
Sanctified Infusion - one step up from Sacremental Infusion.
Level 60 - Utility healer/dps role skill
Wrath Aura - converts infusion based damage into splash, hitting all targets within 5 radius. adds 3 mana to the cost of infusion and reduces the damage bonus by half. *aoe*

Removing:
Pray - heals 250 health, long cooldown (seperate from Chant, Bandage)
Chant - heals 350 health, long cooldown (seperate from Pray, Bandage)

*this would have to only apply to the holy dmg, not the physical. Or both if you wanted.*
**would only work if you landed a melee hit, since that's how infusion works.
***the aoe could be centered on the player character or mob entity that was hit.

(the duration of infusion should be like 5 mins and only cost like 20 mana to change to it, i'm having the idea of maybe having another stance added to clerics to make them more complex)

Also, I think auras should drain your mana by 1 every 5 seconds. Casting them once to enable, and again to disable. Relogging should just remove all self cast skill effects like infusion and auras.

Perhaps a mana gain skill, where you take increased damage while you regain mana. Like temporarily removing armor and increasing magical damage taken by 25% over 8 seconds. (so it's more likely to be used in pve not pvp)?

TL;DR
These changes would add a great variety of diversity and skill to the cleric healer. Although I would do a few things like having an internal 30 second cooldown on your ability to swap Auras. As well as a 5 min duration for Infusions, so it does cost mana to recast if any fights drag out too long. Also, Auras would have to have a similar cooldown so they overlap and work, Auras won't work without an infusion up. tbh. Unless cleric melee dmg was already considered "holy" and thus 'magical' damage.
 

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
Also,

I don't like you when you TLDR my posts. There is good reading above for ideas for new skills for lots of classes. Especially if these were applied to "unholy" energy for necro's and dk's. Also, Paladins could get something from this too, just in a different way.
 

Jinder745

Obsidian
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Skill name: Definition of Prefix to coincide with Heroes Cleric theme
Sacred Infusion,
-Connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration: "sacred rites".
Sacramental Infusion,
-A sacrament is a sacred rite recognized as of particular importance
Sanctified Infusion,
-Sanctification is the act or process of acquiring sanctity, of being made or becoming holy.

The skill I would like introduced involves converting Cleric's "holy power" into offensive power, like a "stance" that would slowly drain mana on each attack, seperate from Might, or stacking with the effects of Might, this would make mana management more difficult so the idea is to change from a strict healer perspective to a divine warrior, type. Different from paladins, who seek out and hunt evil to smite then in the name of their god, Cleric's infuse themselves with the power of the sacred, and holy. Becoming divinity itself in the process, the right hand of god.

Skill Mechanics
Essentially all 3 skills you would unlock at lvl 1 cleric, level 18 cleric, and lvl 45 cleric
They'd all do the same thing but scale differently, and is replaced by the later version (to indicate the power level of the stance.)

(1) Sacred Infusion - Converts 1 mana to an additional 10 damage on successful attacks. This 10 damage bypasses armor and is considered magical. This would scale to 1.5 mana, or 15 holy damage by lvl 15. Level 15-18 would have no difference.

(15 levels to scale 0.5 mana, means (0.0333)*10 or every 3 levels you gain 1 damage till 15)

(18) Sacramental Infusion - Converts 2 mana to an additional 20 damage on successful attacks. This 20 damage bypasses armor and is considered magical. This would scale to 3.0 mana, or 30 holy damage by Level 38. Level 38-45 would have no difference.

(20 levels to scale 1.0 mana, means (0.05)*10 or every 2 levels you gain 1 damage)

(45) Sanctified Infusion - Converts 3.5 mana to an additional 35 damage on successful attacks. This 35 damage bypasses armor and is considered magical. This would scale to 5 mana, or 50 holy damage by level 60.

(15 levels to scale 1.5 mana, means (0.1)&10 or every 1 level you gain 1 damage)

Thing's to think about:
Now keep in mind you have around 200 mana, so 5 mana per swing can easily cost you 50 mana for 250 damage. 5*5 =25*10 =250. This means the near limit of this offense places you around 1,000 damage. This is in no way 'overpowered' I believe. I just gave it some thought and this seemed like a cool skill to help us solo and kill mobs without relying on smite which has a relatively long cooldown for only 100 damage. As a final note, these damage bonuses would only be really efficient at 45-60. Which should be not be considered overpowered for a near max, or max level Cleric.

Also, for developers, keep in mind you do not want a skill like this to spam on your target every swing, it only needs to deduct mana, and deal damage when your swing actually counts, and the target isn't invulnerable.

Damage Stacking:
This would stack in one of two ways or not at all. I'll use a diamond hoe as reference:
Diamond Hoe: 33
Diamond Hoe w/ Might: 41

Stacking 1: Static (only apply Might to physical damage)
Diamond Hoe w/ Might: 41 Phys. Dmg + 15-50 Holy Dmg
56 to 91 Mixed Damage

Stacking 2: Linear (Apply Might individually to each set of damage)
Diamond Hoe w/ Might: 41 Phys. Dmg + 18.75-62.5 Holy Dmg w/ Might
59.75 to 103.5 Mixed Damage

Stacking 3: Dynamic (the complicated one)
If holy damage is >34. Then Might is applied to your Holy Damage since it is and would scale higher, and would then no longer be applied to your Physical Damage which is 33 without might.

This would give 2 dynamic ranges of damage with different amounts of mitigated armor.
41 Physical Damage + 15-30 Holy Damage (since you cap at level 38 w/ Sacramental Infusion) which means 56-71 damage (41 of which affected by armor)
33 Physical Damage + 43.75-62.5 Holy Damage. (since you start at level 45, and go to 60 w/ Sanctified Infusion) which means 76.75-95.5 total Damage. (33 of which affected by armor)

Stacking 4: Conversion w/ No Might Benefit (nerf us to give us this skill, option)
Diamond Hoe: (33 + 15-50) = 48-83 Holy Damage

Stacking 5: Conversion w/ Might (completely buff our dmg to bypass armor)
Diamond Hoe: (33 + 15-50) x 1.25 = 60-103.75 Holy Damage

Notes
It is important to note here my math is a little off; Diamond Hoe's do 33 damage x 1.25% with might is actually 41.25 damage, however it's rounded down. So, this accounts for the discrepancies (listed above) between Stacking 2: and Stacking 5: methodology. Also, Part of 2 is physical. 5 Is purely Holy/Magical Damage.

I would like to point out that I really like the Stacking 3: method because that means our damage would still be partially mitigated by armor, but it would scale to benefit us better by only applying might to our strongest damage source, so after 45 that becomes holy dmg if we have our Infusion up. For you skimming the text, this doesn't mean it's the most OP. Stacking 5: Conversion w/ Might is the most OP way to make this skill work.

Testing, Feel of Cleric pvp/pve
Also, I feel as if after mitigated damage this would be about 70 dmg on armored targets, which is only a small increase on what it already is. Rogues and other classes typically swing at me for 140+ before mitigation w/ might. So they're still hitting a lot harder and this shouldn't make us OP after taking into consideration it is draining our mana with each hit, which means we get less smites, less heals, and less survivability. This is only to balance our offense out to make us be able to stand our ground.

Currently, Clerics, if trapped into a 1v1 will die with just melee'ing and smiting. Even if I sat there and spammed heals, we'd still die.

There is no win scenario, where if we did more damage with this new skillset we could stand our ground so they'd at least have to use skills to interupt heals or completely silence us from using smite, among other things. Essentially, offensively this would make us a tougher to kill target by making it so you can't just come beat us to death with no skill or worry of collapsing to their melee damage. Even if it's as low or near typical warrior damage. It would be significantly more than the 33 or 41 we deal currently and still significantly less than DPS classes. (We do have armor and I have taken this in account to the math I've listed above.)

I also feel as if in PVE we're limited when fighting packs of monsters, we only have Smite on cooldown which will drain our mana, and then no other form of offense except a low-dmg melee which can't kill more than one or two monsters at a time before you're overrun. It's slightly too low, but at the cost of healing in PVE this is alright, although with a mana to damage option this would make us slightly more on par with other classes.

Drainsoul is a great example of why I feel this change is unique to Clerics. Because Drainsoul deals X damage and heals Y health (effectively stealing it, but more importantly doubling the effect by making it two fold.) Also, the vampiric style of this doesn't fit in with Cleric which is why I believe the new Infusion skills I've listed above would be a fantastic addition to Cleric. You could even remove smite, or leave it in so we could use even more mana to damage, while infusion is up, and smiting, we would burn through a lot of mana, and still only do relatively small damage compared to combos from every other DPS class in the game.

Theorycrafting
Theoretically, with Stacking 3 mechanics and smite spam as a Max Level 60 Cleric you could deal 95.5 Mixed damage + 100 damage in one hit , and then only 95.5 Mixed damage in melee after the internal invulnerability wears off from being hit until smite comes back off of cool-down. This would put us below all casters and rogues specs in burst/effective dps. Remember, part of this is mitigated. However, I feel as if this change might make nooby casters who do not Kite or run and attack die easier to a max Cleric. Also, I feel as if warriors might complain because our damage should be on par (from what I know) with specced warriors, though I do not know their damaging skills enough to tell for sure. I typically only fight Rogues, Casters, or Bloodmage/Disciples.

Also, I do not know without testing if Smite bypasses armor, though I think it does.
Guurll fran yall be trippin dis shiiz is cray cray
 

leftovers5

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Location
USA
All I remember was that qroundhawk, a level 60 cleric, was able to beat a 58 samurai and then a 60 samurai in 1v1s without much of a scratch. I don't really see clerics getting a buff to their damage because they have immense survivability, and it also sort of goes against the stigma for the class.
 

PernixPike

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Location
Roswell, Georgia
I don't see in any way how a Cleric doing more damage than a Samurai is balanced. Even if the Mana cost is high, Cleric is intended to be the best healing class in Heroes. They should stay dedicated to healing.
 
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
All I remember was that qroundhawk, a level 60 cleric, was able to beat a 58 samurai and then a 60 samurai in 1v1s without much of a scratch. I don't really see clerics getting a buff to their damage because they have immense survivability, and it also sort of goes against the stigma for the class.
Are you talking bout bed? No offense but he's horrible as Samurai ._.
 

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
All I remember was that qroundhawk, a level 60 cleric, was able to beat a 58 samurai and then a 60 samurai in 1v1s without much of a scratch. I don't really see clerics getting a buff to their damage because they have immense survivability, and it also sort of goes against the stigma for the class.

This was in the old system, I've been dueling and fighting specced 60's since the latest changes and we don't stand a chance. Also, cleric DPS was higher in the old system because health was much lower, so the 10 damage from smite was like 16-25% of someone's health. However, you could only do about 3-4 smites. Now, the 100 damage from smite is irrelevant - in a short fight, a samurai, for example, can swing at you for 120 (without buffs) on what I would call "Global Cooldown" which is the fastest you can be hit in between the inherit invulnerability that you get as you take damage, before you can take damage again. In contrast, smite has a much longer cooldown period, and is silencable by most rogue specs, and even warrior specs don't have to worry about it, they can eat the damage. The only problem I see is that Casters have low health but still much higher burst, however, they have no silence. So, when you cast your heals unless they can drop you from full HP, then usually you can heal up before their skills come off CD again. Unless they melee you into terrain that gives them an advantage, or they out manuever you, which is common now with skills like quantum leap, blink, and ports.

Also, in my example above, I am not taking into consideration any skills such as eviscerate, bleeds, or slows into calculation. Keep in mind that most of your heals have a 2-3 second window where you will take well over the amount, from my experience, that you're healing in damage from any samurai, ninja, thief, etc. with a diamond weapon of their type. A simple kick when we're bandaging and we have no skill usage, only armor, and about 800-900 health. There is no survivability beyond that except for Invuln which is only a 6 second window, I think, that allows us to get a few heals off. Know that we have less maneuverability than most of these classes as well, with no speed buffs, and no form to catch up to, or run away from, various people, aside from alchemy which everyone has access to. Keep in mind, you'd be using Invuln while their skills come off of cd's as well. I don't mind if we even nerf bandage, pray, chant, and invuln for the cleric path if it got the changes to turn it into a dynamic healer, with support dps as an option - especially if it takes us to the point of becoming a minor threat to unwary rogue and caster specced people.

Right now they just run us over, and in the defense I'm making here, that wasn't true until the latest changes, I've noticed other classes becoming more powerful and imbalanced, as in different - in a good way, compared to the old system, now a cleric is a spec/class that can only do 1 thing and that's a few various heals with long cooldowns that has little to no PVP aspect at all. No one wants to bind heals to playernames and stand in a corner. With changes like auras and infusion we could actually get into the fight and heal our groups, deal additional damage, even if minor, things like this would improve our playstyle dynamically and increase the fun of the class.

I think that is the worst part about cleric, that the PVP aspect of the class is skewed because it's too focused on 1 similar mechanic - I would only like to see it restored and become viable, as any specced class, that you've worked for, should be. Any complaints for your own classes I would ask that you refrain from posting about here, even though I discussed what if scenarios here, it was purely for comparison and educational purposes. This is a suggestion for cleric's mechanic changes and I would ask that they stay mostly on topic.

This similar mechanic is how healing works in herocraft, right now we have bandage, pray, chant, etc. It's essentially the same skill with a different name with different durations and cast times. The mechanics of the skill don't change. Invuln and Might feel as if they're fillers for the class from my perspective. People only want to bring a cleric to MA because we have 3 single target heals on seperate cooldowns, and Might. What if we have the option to groupheal while dealing damage, or single target heal while dealing damage, what if we can deal support dps to cleave teams then swap after 30 seconds and heal on the next wave, while another healer waits for mana?

These different scenarios I'm presenting is what I mean by 'challenging the playstyle of the Cleric.' Make it become more dynamic so that's it more fun than standing on stairs and using binds to spam bandage. Obviously the drawbacks to this have been discussed in pretty good detail above, with focus primarily on PVP because of how many people would whine if it wasn't balanced for PVP primarily and became a class considered "OP." Everyone would re-roll cleric. As they always do with "OP" classes. This is why I suggested the numbers that I did, with 5 options to change the mechanics of how it functions to adjust our damage output as a support class dynamically.

I don't see in any way how a Cleric doing more damage than a Samurai is balanced. Even if the Mana cost is high, Cleric is intended to be the best healing class in Heroes. They should stay dedicated to healing.

No where did I suggest that clerics should have more damage than samurais. Simply boosting our melee damage output and consuming mana in the process would not give us more dps than a Samurai. If the mana cost is balanced, it would not allow us to outheal your dps while defending ourselves. Ideally, since we're both mastered classes/specs, it should be balanced. However, in heroes "Support" means you suck, fail, and die miserably at everything. Which is why there will definately be one less Cleric you think is the "best healing class" in heroes.

2/3rd of my suggestions wouldn't change how good our heals are, they would only change them to be player-skill based, upon primarily -- can you fill a support role attacking mobs?while watching your aura, infusion, and group health/other cooldowns? Can you aura dance while attacking with a group situationally? These are things I haven't discussed, directly, in depth here, and would need to be considered by the dev team for balancing reasons. Primarily, cooldowns on how fast you can swap, if you can swap, and which ones they even decide to put into the class.

Please consider this mechanical change to the Cleric class, I would like for my class to be more fun to play, and require more skill to heal in PVE situations. The changes would also become a minor boost to PVP situations where we can knock people around while running, while doing very light healing, or splash damage, to ourselves, or others, as discussed above.

I will try not to reply in depth to any more responses to this suggestion. I feel as if I have covered every aspect of the suggestion changes and how they would play out.

Thank you for your time,
xexorian
 

Dsawemd

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
I've played cleric before. Played them through zeal when smite WAS harmtouch (for like max a week lol) and when they were fit into the role they are in now of healing support. I might go cleric again, I'm casually leveling as healer.

Imo, Pvp as a cleric should and did (does?) work in three ways. You should never be alone.
One: 1v1 cleric smite kites and heals and the fight takes forever as the cleric heals and stings away with smite. Either player can outsurvive the other, but the master'd cleric will probably have to run, die, or get lucky against a master'd spec.
Two: 1v2 cleric heals and runs to his partner (unless he can make it 2v2 fast he dies) healing them both as the partner kills (if both clerics, smite kite n heal)
Three:Team, cleric heals and may throw on an instant 100 dmg to focus'd target.

Your skills, and I read them, seem to be a complete overhaul that may be unecessarily different from the current skills, and specifically one that allows clerics to deal damage or healing depending on their current need. I think they should not be allowed to choose if a skill does dmg or healing, unless it is a simple skill, not at all similar to your aoe splash aura.

Since you asked for suggestions as well:

Change smite so that it can do damage to enemies or healing to friends, OR add a different skill that can do 200 healing on a friend or 100 dmg on an enemy on a warmup, and replace one of the heals with it.
 

Aburido_burrito

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Location
Pony land
Oh look a big wall of text! Anywho I think Clerics don't need pvp skills because they are not a pvp class, this is like askin for ninjas to get pray because they die quickly.
 

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
I've played cleric before. Played them through zeal when smite WAS harmtouch (for like max a week lol) and when they were fit into the role they are in now of healing support. I might go cleric again, I'm casually leveling as healer.

Imo, Pvp as a cleric should and did (does?) work in three ways. You should never be alone.
One: 1v1 cleric smite kites and heals and the fight takes forever as the cleric heals and stings away with smite. Either player can outsurvive the other, but the master'd cleric will probably have to run, die, or get lucky against a master'd spec.
Two: 1v2 cleric heals and runs to his partner (unless he can make it 2v2 fast he dies) healing them both as the partner kills (if both clerics, smite kite n heal)
Three:Team, cleric heals and may throw on an instant 100 dmg to focus'd target.

This was the old system. You seem to be lacking updated information. Clerics are essentially rocks. They cannot move when they're healing. They're sitting ducks. They have no additional manueverability compared to other healers, casters, rogues, and some warriors.

Your skills, and I read them, seem to be a complete overhaul that may be unecessarily different from the current skills, and specifically one that allows clerics to deal damage or healing depending on their current need. I think they should not be allowed to choose if a skill does dmg or healing, unless it is a simple skill, not at all similar to your aoe splash aura.

Since you asked for suggestions as well:

Change smite so that it can do damage to enemies or healing to friends, OR add a different skill that can do 200 healing on a friend or 100 dmg on an enemy on a warmup, and replace one of the heals with it.

First off, let me say that it's not choosing to deal damage or healing directly. The point of Infusions was to convert mana into these things based on your actions. To make us be a supportive class by throwing us into the fray of melee combat, and allowing us to choose what hitting the enemy does for us.

How is it unnecessarily different from the current skills? Your suggestion is clearly very simple. You're saying we should make smite essentially function exactly like bandage, pray, chant, groupheal, and possibly fullheal work. That's gibberish. That would nerf us so we're even less effective.

I'm talking about dynamic changes to make us a reactive class that requires more skill to play. Perhaps removing these old duplicated skills with different names and configurations and putting in Sanctified Infusion, and something like an Aura which applys to that every 30 seconds. Something you have to re-cast and think carefully before choosing to do so, because for the next 30 seconds you can't instantly swap from splash aoe damage, to single target healing. This is the player skill part I'd like to see incorporated, making strategic decisions on the fly.

Perhaps, instead of increasing Infusion cost, simply make these even shorter bursts of holy auras, like 10 or 15 seconds for 10 or 15 mana. Straight up. So that infusion only applies a small static damage increase based on the Stacking 1>5 methods above. Then the skill/reactive part would come from choosing how to apply it in real time. Without risking too much mana. Which could be determined by how many times you attack a target.

In no way am I insulting your contributions, in my eyes, you are also helping me to elaborate the point of these suggestions, I thank you.
 

ThatAintFalco

Portal
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
I like the idea of having different ways of damage, other than the plain skills that we have. Although, trying to explain this idea with the capability of clerics being offensive might have been a bad way to explain this. Basically, I think the main suggestion was to put a new dynamic into herocraft.

Having classes be put into categories to have a different way of pvp. "Holy" classes would wound "Dark" classes more, while "Dark" classes do more damage to "Netural" classes. The classes that we already have can easily be sorted out into catagories

Holy Dark Neutral Other
Paladin Dreadknight Samurai Dragoon.
^example of a new combat triangle

Holy beats dark
Dark beats Neutral
Neutral beats Other
Other beats Holy

This adds a different rpg aspect to herocraft, which could greatly benefit it

I could explain more, but I"m lazy.
 
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