Suggestion Balance suggestion for Dragoon

[Dakinara]

I feel that enderpearl is a great raiding skill, however in combat if you get it off you are 100% safe and sound. In my opinion, strip it from pvp entirely, no class should have a sure-fire escape. -pokes ninja-


Forcepull/ push do cancel warmups, but tremor does not. I believe it can be toggled.

I would love to keep enderpearl in game but at least make it not usable in combat, personally. And yes smoke lasts way too long also and is basically another auto-escape.

 

[malikdanab]

This thread is degrading from goons to all mobility skills (In a good way.) TBH I'd rather these changes be implemented now and see how they work then deal with this stuff for any longer.

 

[malikdanab]

In other news, Happy Thanksgiving to all Americans! Hopefully the goons will eat too much stuffing and won't be able to jump as much *wink*wink*nudge*nudge*

 

[JupiterRome]

INclude these changes on test. play around goon a little bit and find a balance point.? (not much help but stil..)

@STDs4YouAnd4Me ive actully agreed with most of what you've said

 

[malikdanab]

INclude these changes on test. play around goon a little bit and find a balance point.? (not much help but stil..)

@STDs4YouAnd4Me ive actully agreed with most of what you've said

The problem with this is that only people I know who even messes with test are Kainzo and Delf. With that said, @Delfofthebla can we try these changes out

 

[FuturizeHandgun]

Right now Dragoon can literally get away from any class. It takes around 2-3 of a certain class to chase down a good one. (For example, you need at least a wizard to root them) If this is intended, by all means keep jump the same.

Nerfing Super Jump will hardly change this, right now it is on a warm-up and has already taken a hit.

Dragoon's get away from stuff using Jump. As long as jump is kept the same they can get away from any fair fight and get away from most teams based on the make up of that team.

Possible Solutions:

Give Jump Diminishing Returns

Correctly fix scaling of attributes with jump.

Theory on Scaling: I'm not sure on this because I have not tested.

Currently the best jump comes from ~ 20 agility. As you increase your agility you also increase the y velocity at which you launch yourself. If the y velocity increases faster than the x velocity, (Not sure of what the code actually does) the angle of your jump will increase, anything above 45 degrees will be counter productive to getting away. @FuturizeHandgun (Confirm the physics?)

I'm not sure if this is actually true but a few dragoon's have said they didn't really like having high agility ~30 because it seemed to "loop".

Basically: If higher levels of agility give you a jump that has a higher angle than 45 degrees, the attribute points are not worth it for getting away or catching people. Your most optimal jump will come from an initial angle of 45 degrees.

Crunching the Quantum Mechanics......DING!
On a level playing field, a jump at a 45, will have the farthest field in distance,(results in a squareroot(2)over 2). Anything over 45, will compromise distance in the x direction, which is a big NONO.

 

[TimForReal]

Main idea really is to replace jump with a low CD, decent range+scaling lunge.​

In my opinion this is a pretty simple change and would make the class more lancer like (lore wise). It would still have the amazing mobility of superjump just wouldn't be able to escape any fights which is not what warrior should be about.

Warriors: High health, tanky, power through fights
Rogues: Low health, squishy, high mobility

...(imo)

[Insert creative name here]
You lunge toward your target within (7 + 0.15 per agility point) blocks CD: 8 secs Stam: 300 Mana: 0

Note: Currently jump is Stam: 300 CD: 6 secs

Discuss.
@malikdanab
@Sirdemonic3
@BaBomba
Troll posts, rage, and unproductive comments will be tagged for removal**

Is it possible to have increased stam cost per use while PvP tagged?

I.E. (Combat Tagged) Jump 1 = 300, Jump 2 = 325, Jump 3 = 350 - or what have you. Keeps scaling up until you get out of combat.

 

[TheBrute2001]

Is it possible to have increased stam cost per use while PvP tagged?

I.E. (Combat Tagged) Jump 1 = 300, Jump 2 = 325, Jump 3 = 350 - or what have you. Keeps scaling up until you get out of combat.

Your changes are too insignificant, it should be a great stamina usage in combat where one or two would greatly deplete you. Out of combat, i couldn't care less what the usage is.

 

[TimForReal]

Your changes are too insignificant, it should be a great stamina usage in combat where one or two would greatly deplete you. Out of combat, i couldn't care less what the usage is.

Of course, they were just examples; the actual numbers would need to be worked out.

 

[RoflcerOfDaLawl]

Ill give my opinion as a wizard. Ill step away from mobility damage and armour and point out the fact that on top of all of this, a good dragoon will cancel any attempt to cast a warmup. Whether it be spear (12) or if that is on cooldown then impale (9) or god forbid they are both on cd you can simply bash. Therefore no warmups can be used against a good dragoon. Now to go back into the damage armour issue, i can get easily get 11-hit killed by auto attacks by a well attributely-balanced dragoon. That doesnt seem too good, but then put into mind the strike, peircing, lunar, and bash all equivalent, slightly below, or stronger than an auto attack, that lower the total to about 6 auto attacks to kill me, a total of 5 seconds.

I agree with this to a certain extent, since there is one exception to what is said above and that is a wizard's entangle. Entangle lasts 3 seconds (if the wiki information is correct) this creates a perfect opportunity for wizards to get off one of their warmup skills like bolt for instance, as bolt only has a 2 second warmup. While entangled, essentially the only skill dragoons can use is tremor, which is not very helpful as it only deals damage in a 5 block radius around the dragoon. Any wizard in their right mind would not dare get this close to a dragoon, seeing as they can entangle from the safe distance of 12 blocks away.

Therefore if timed correctly, this is a fail-safe combo to use on a dragoon for easy damage. Add some kiting and enderpearls in, while waiting for cooldowns... a dragoon while have his work cut out for him.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Nobody would play Dragoon if you required a target in order to jump. I'm pretty sure Kainzo isn't looking to go in that direction. At the very least, i have no such interests.

It's not about balance, nor is it about "whether or not it would work". It would remove the enjoyment out of playing the class, which is why I am against it.

Both Berserker and Disciple already have the exact same skill you describe Lightning, and neither of them are considered "mobile", which is what Dragoon is supposed to be about.

 

[TheBrute2001]

I agree with this to a certain extent, since there is one exception to what is said above and that is a wizard's entangle. Entangle lasts 3 seconds (if the wiki information is correct) this creates a perfect opportunity for wizards to get off one of their warmup skills like bolt for instance, as bolt only has a 2 second warmup. While entangled, essentially the only skill dragoons can use is tremor, which is not very helpful as it only deals damage in a 5 block radius around the dragoon. Any wizard in their right mind would not dare get this close to a dragoon, seeing as they can entangle from the safe distance of 12 blocks away.

Therefore if timed correctly, this is a fail-safe combo to use on a dragoon for easy damage. Add some kiting and enderpearls in, while waiting for cooldowns... a dragoon while have his work cut out for him.

My examples were against good dragoons, which you obviously aren't. (I kid of course) but incase you didnt know. If you get entangled spear the wizard. G_G no spells for you.

 

[Reverend_Creeper]

Just a heads up... people keep saying that Dragoon uses 300 stamina per jump but it's actually 400 stamina per jump. Another thing to think of is how Ninjas also have Back Flip (it uses 300 stamina by the way) which if used right acts like a jump and if used like it's supposed to it's amazing at putting distance between two players and allows some arrows or shurikens to get in. Not only that but it has the same CD and Ninjas usually have higher agility making backflip an extremely effective chasing tool and gap creating tool. Let's not forget that ninjas also have smoke, a stun and Escape Artist. Ninjas are better than dragoons for escaping especially if Escape Artist isn't on CD. Dragoons without jump would have a lot less mobility than wizards, ninjas, bards, and any class that has higher agility. Dragoons skills aren't even overpowered and in terms of damage they are kind of weak besides strike, but they make up for it with left click damage and the long range on spear(12 blocks) and Impale(10 blocks) which allows for kiting on melee classes. While those skills are nice, I would say that dragoon has pretty bad stamina problems almost on par with ninjas. Ninjas however have energize to help solve their stamina problem.
500 Stam Super Jump
400 Stam Tremor
400 Stam Jump
400 Stam Disarm
350 Stam Bash
300 Stam Impale
300 Stam Spear
250 Stam Lunar Lance
200 Stam Strike
If you look at the numbers you would notice that you can't use jump in conjunction with most of these skills unless you want to give yourself a slowness 1 debuff for a couple of seconds due to having 300 or less stamina(unable to sprint). If anything I think that dragoon should have their cooldowns and stamina costs reworked, not break jump making the class useless. An interesting thing would be to make jump have 2 parts to the skill. For instance the jump would be normal on the first key press of jump, but when in midair if you target an enemy and press the keybind again it acts like a lunge within a certain distance. The lunge part of it would have a 250 stamina use so that the total of it is 650 stamina, which allows you to chase down enemies like a dragoon should be able to but also doesn't give them the chance to spam skills. The reason for this is that jump kinda fucks up a lot if you lag at all, and a targeted lunge that only works when jumping and for an extremely high stamina cost seems like it wouldn't be unfair if it lets the dragoon keep the chase going. The lunge would obviously have a distance limit and the CD would have an extension(which wouldn't matter because you shouldn't really ever jump with less than 750 stamina when chasing). Overall what i'm trying to say though is that plenty of classes can escape just as easily as dragoon, a wizard can entangle then blink halfway up a mountain, bards can use accelerando, ninjas can literally escape from anything at all, and dragoons can jump away. In terms of escaping dragoons aren't even the best, sure Super Jump is like 25 blocks high with 20 agi, but in all honesty you need to be in a mountainous area or forests for it to be even remotely useful for escaping, and if misused it has an 18 second CD and leaves you with half stamina. I agree that some sort of rework for dragoon should come, but this doesn't seem to be the right course of action.

 

[RoflcerOfDaLawl]

My examples were against good dragoons, which you obviously aren't. (I kid of course) but incase you didnt know. If you get entangled spear the wizard. G_G no spells for you.

you can't use target spells when entangled

 

[TheBrute2001]

you can't use target spells when entangled

Has this been recently changed, cuz miners does this to me all day erry day. @I_Love_Miners

 

[RoflcerOfDaLawl]

Has this been recently changed, cuz miners does this to me all day erry day. @I_Love_Miners

you're right I just tried it on my boy @SpikesLoL

 

[TheBrute2001]

you're right I just tried it on my boy @SpikesLoL

G_G for days badgoon <3

 

[Delfofthebla]

I'll show you the best bits of some suggestions I posted on the balance team forum.

• 1: Dragoon's Melee Damage

Reduce from 60 to 50 to keep it more in line with other warriors
For reference:

Berserker: 46
Dreadknight: 46
Paladin: 48
Dragoon: 60

• 2: Dragoon's Tremor

Increase CD from 9 to 15. Reduce base knock-back and make it scale with Agility.

• 3: Dragoon's Armor Weight.

Decrease from 52.5 to 47.5
For reference:

Berserker: 49.75
Dragoon: 52.5
Dreadknight: 53.75
Paladin: 60

• 4: Dragoon's Super Jump

Can't be used in combat.

I can agree with the tremor and armor weight reductions for sure, but as Zaihn has pointed out, I do not think treating superjump like that will actually solve anything. A higher base cooldown is fine by my books, but actually putting in a condition for combat or no combat, is really something I'd prefer to avoid with it. Superjump is conditionally useful, but it's not guaranteed to get you out of jail every time. Jump is hands down the more useful ability for that.

As far as the left click goes, I think that is a bit harsh. It's probably a tad bit too high, but I do not think it is necessary to drop it into the 50's. Paladin and Dreadknight are more defensive / support / pure tank type classes, and Berserker damage scales significantly from his abilities. He very rarely is fighting at 46 damage--it's likely closer to 60-70 in most situations.

you can't use target spells when entangled

You can. Entangle does nothing other than halt your movement, and movement based abilities. (Such as Jump, Blink, or FlyingKick.)

 

[malikdanab]

I can agree with the tremor and armor weight reductions for sure, but as Zaihn has pointed out, I do not think treating superjump like that will actually solve anything. A higher base cooldown is fine by my books, but actually putting in a condition for combat or no combat, is really something I'd prefer to avoid with it. Superjump is conditionally useful, but it's not guaranteed to get you out of jail every time. Jump is hands down the more useful ability for that.

As far as the left click goes, I think that is a bit harsh. It's probably a tad bit too high, but I do not think it is necessary to drop it into the 50's. Paladin and Dreadknight are more defensive / support / pure tank type classes, and Berserker damage scales significantly from his abilities. He very rarely is fighting at 46 damage--it's likely closer to 60-70 in most situations.

I was just thinking about the least abrasive change to Super Jump. Kainzo is thinking about removing the skill entirely, so I guess all change ideas are pointless. In the case of melee dmg. I was basically bartering I never expected the first offer to be taken. Something like 55 would be better IMO.

 

[I_Love_Miners]

Has this been recently changed, cuz miners does this to me all day erry day. @I_Love_Miners

it has never changed I don't think. people are just dumb and don't know how to avoid that weird rubber banding thing that happens when youre rooted and you attempt to move. I however do, and it's obvious, and it's not exploiting.

root is meant to root the player in place, but not silence, which is why I'm able to use any skill I waaaaaant