The great objectivity sheet...

[Kainzo]

@Balance Team
Alpha Sheet (Old and new one coming)

Here's some random stuff from the sheet.

Skill quantitification.

Offensive:
DMG * RANGE / (CD + Warmup) = TOTAL UTILITY
(Projectile/aiming skills have a default of 10-15 range)

Defensive:
Healing * Range / (CD + Warmup) = TOTAL UTILITY
(aiming heals have a default of 10-15 range)

Utility:
Attribute buffs = 10 points per attribute

Stats
Total HP1
Total MP0.5
Starting HP0.5
Starting MP0.25
Level-Gains
Per-Level-HP
Per-Level-MP
Per-Level-STAM
Weapons
Swords25
Axes20
Wands15
Spades20
Hoes20
Bow25
Shears15
Offensive Skill
range 1-5
DMGRANGECdWarmup
Fireball1002052.5

 

[mikehk]

kain, that spreadsheet's from last map. it's got sammy and mystic.

 

[Kainzo]

kain, that spreadsheet's from last map. it's got sammy and mystic.

It was actually created 3 years ago..

 

[mikehk]

lol should be updated

 

[Jonsoon]

lol should be updated

Note why he said he "wants to create". He linked that as an example.

 

[Kainzo]

Yep. I think the only way to properly balance these classes is to have an example to base things off of. We need to use objectivity and less "opinions" on what we think isnt balanced.

Each class needs X skills - Every skill counts as Y points.
Each skill should be then denoted a worth of Z points.

HP-gain-per-level = A points
Mana-gain-per-level = B points
Stamina-gain-per-level = C points
Starting Health = D points
Starting Mana = E points

and so forth... I think something is possible to do, but would take an asston of time and logic working.

Something WoW and other games have failed to do.

 

[Kainzo]

Alright - I'm bumping this - refer to the first post

 

[Eldrylars]

We would need to come up with value to effects as well as value to skill combinations.

I suppose it would work to start with the basic examples as above, but Pig+PlagueB+FB would have a greater value then it's individual pieces due to the ability to combo the skills,

Value to:

• CC
  • Stuns
  • Blinds
  • Snares
  • Interrupts
• Movement
  • Speed Buffs/Debuffs
  • Knockbacks

I am sure I am missing something, but these need to be able to be quantified as well.

As an example, Dragoon's jump alone is pretty well balanced, utility to cost, but mix that with the Dragoon's high armor, high health and large amounts of stamina and you get a class that can often escape from anything, making it a more valuable skill for the skillset. A Bloodmage with Jump for instance would not be nearly as strong.

 

[Kainzo]

We would need to come up with value to effects as well as value to skill combinations.

I suppose it would work to start with the basic examples as above, but Pig+PlagueB+FB would have a greater value then it's individual pieces due to the ability to combo the skills,

Value to:

• CC
  • Stuns
  • Blinds
  • Snares
  • Interrupts
• Movement
  • Speed Buffs/Debuffs
  • Knockbacks

I am sure I am missing something, but these need to be able to be quantified as well.

As an example, Dragoon's jump alone is pretty well balanced, utility to cost, but mix that with the Dragoon's high armor, high health and large amounts of stamina and you get a class that can often escape from anything, making it a more valuable skill for the skillset. A Bloodmage with Jump for instance would not be nearly as strong.

Correct. It's going to be a lot of work - but will allow us to quantity things correctly - I'm looking for more things to add to the formula for a skill. Stuns / Blinds / Snares - would be considered a side-effect utility and would be weighted as so.

Movement would also be a sub-section of utility

 

[Eldrylars]

I know you are opposed to it Kainzo but I will request it again because it's would take HOURS and HOURS to determine the statistics of all live skills by physically testing each one.
We need to have a copy paste of the current config files, which would take you 5 minutes per class instead of taking us 5 minutes per skill.
Just copy/paste/splat like you example here.

Stats
Total HP1
Total MP0.5
Starting HP0.5
Starting MP0.25
Level-Gains
Per-Level-HP
Per-Level-MP
Per-Level-STAM
Weapons
Swords25
Axes20
Wands15
Spades20
Hoes20
Bow25
Shears15
Offensive Skill
range 1-5
DMGRANGECdWarmup
Fireball1002052.5

[/quote]

I could see myself helping to get all the numbers together with this assistance. Without it would take an hour for each class to get "close" numbers and then after that there would still be the number crunching.

 

[Eldrylars]

Unless you are wanting us to just make up the numbers and try to balance our own numbers.

 

[LightningCape]

Yep. I think the only way to properly balance these classes is to have an example to base things off of. We need to use objectivity and less "opinions" on what we think isnt balanced.

Each class needs X skills - Every skill counts as Y points.
Each skill should be then denoted a worth of Z points.

HP-gain-per-level = A points
Mana-gain-per-level = B points
Stamina-gain-per-level = C points
Starting Health = D points
Starting Mana = E points

and so forth... I think something is possible to do, but would take an asston of time and logic working.

Something WoW and other games have failed to do.

Hope we can do this. If we can get a good system going balance patches would maybe become consistent

 

[Rumblestikk]

This seems promising. Whats the first step here?

 

[Kainzo]

This seems promising. Whats the first step here?

Here's the road map.


SKILLS
-offensive
-defensive
-utility

STATS
-base health/mana
-per-level health/mana sets
-regen-per-level health/mana/stamina
-base equipment weight

TOOLS
-weapons allowed
-base-damage-with-wep
-damage-per-level


The SKILLS is the most important thing to quantity as they will directly affect the rest. Each "skill type" will have a weight applied to it.
Offensive will have a 1.0 applied (so its 1:1 ratio) where as the DEFENSIVE will have a 0.75 applied.

The FINAL outcome for all of this is TOTAL UTILITY. This is the bench mark that all classes will hove around.

So we did all the math, a class with 10 skills, 8 dmg, 2 utilty and other random stats has 1000. We can plugin and play numbers until other classes max 1000. As things go up, so do the numbers and the effectiveness of each.

This is a massive undertaking but will lead to much better balance.

 

[Eldrylars]

@Kainzo So is the intention to take the current skills lists and:

• Login to test and manually test each skills scaling/range/damage/cd/warmup... and then determine it's score?
• Create out own numbers for each existing skill to create out own idea of where the points should be to attain a specific score?
• Wait for a copy paste of the scaling/range/damage/cd/warmup... from the current config files?

 

[Kainzo]

@Kainzo So is the intention to take the current skills lists and:

• Login to test and manually test each skills scaling/range/damage/cd/warmup... and then determine it's score?
• Create out own numbers for each existing skill to create out own idea of where the points should be to attain a specific score?
• Wait for a copy paste of the scaling/range/damage/cd/warmup... from the current config files?

First, I'm making changes to the formulas and adding in sub-effect weight.. at that point we can adjust the weight of each and then plug and play information.

We'll have to come up with a concise way to list out the skill information for each class and hopefully have excel (or whatever calculator we'll use) do it for us.

Right now i'm handling this on the docs, setting things up.

 

[Eldrylars]

First, I'm making changes to the formulas and adding in sub-effect weight.. at that point we can adjust the weight of each and then plug and play information.

We'll have to come up with a concise way to list out the skill information for each class and hopefully have excel (or whatever calculator we'll use) do it for us.

Right now i'm handling this on the docs, setting things up.

Awesome, thanks for the update.
I will keep an eye on the docs and updates here.

 

[Kainzo]

Righty-o

 

[Rumblestikk]

Eldry when everything on Kains side is set to go we should get together and work on this. Faster testing if were both working for the output.