Stun

[Dsawemd]

Stun is a dangerously difficult CC to balance, as it is currently implemented. Too long of a Stun, or on a class with decent Melee and the skill is OP. Too short and it will not work as a CC.

When you take damage in Herocraft, you move away from the damage, except when you are Stunned.
This allows for a lot of damage to be done to any target who is stuck in the same 1x1 block.
You have all seen a similar effect when a zombie or a player has you against a wall, suddenly the zombie is dealing tons of damage.
NEW STUN (requires coding):
The player cannot move, and is silenced. However, they can be knocked around when they take damage!

This would make Stuns able to last longer, or be given to a class that has decent damage, and still be balanced.

This would also serve well to deal with some of the STR-Pally bandwagon, without changing the class's signature playstyle/skills.

If the new coding isn't possible, I can suggest workarounds that will let us balance Stuns better.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I never found a way to code it this way.

I tried.

Someone might be able to, but I never found a way. The only way to stop you from moving is to prevent you from moving at all. The drawback is as you describe, it doesn't allow people to knock you around.

 

[Dsawemd]

I never found a way to code it this way.

I tried.

Someone might be able to, but I never found a way. The only way to stop you from moving is to prevent you from moving at all. The drawback is as you describe, it doesn't allow people to knock you around.

What about Stun lowering Movement Speed to 0% or 1%?
We can change Movement speed now.

 

[Delfofthebla]

What about Stun lowering Movement Speed to 0% or 1%?
We can change Movement speed now.

You've always been able to change movement speed. People can still jump to move though. Do you remember the old root? It worked the way you describe. We lowered your movespeed to 0, and gave you negative jump boost so you couldn't jump very high. Yet you could still spam spacebar and you'd be able to run all over the place. It didn't work well.

 

[Dsawemd]

You've always been able to change movement speed. People can still jump to move though. Do you remember the old root? It worked the way you describe. We lowered your movespeed to 0, and gave you negative jump boost so you couldn't jump very high. Yet you could still spam spacebar and you'd be able to run all over the place. It didn't work well.

Here's a really complex code probably bad idea, but lets keep TheoryCrafting.

Stun now spawns a single cobweb at the Targets feet. The cobweb disappears upon taking damage but Reappears upon the Target changing Blocks.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Here's a really complex code probably bad idea, but lets keep TheoryCrafting.

Stun now spawns a single cobweb at the Targets feet. The cobweb disappears upon taking damage but Reappears upon the Target changing Blocks.

Do you remember Web a year ago? Do you remember how it was actually quite large, but when spawning it on players they somehow managed to run out of it almost immediately? Do you remember that you could also get caught in it, and it would basically guarantee your death?

It'd be like that, but less reliable due to the smaller size. If the target was moving at full speed, they would very likely run past the web before it even spawned on them.

Now, you could try and spawn the web, then put the player back in the web to prevent this, but you still have the problem of being able to be caught in it yourself, making it very unlike a stun. Additionally, a web would cause the exact same problem that you are trying to fix. If you are stuck "deep" within a web, you are STUCK in that thing. The web is powerful when it works, awful when it doesn't, but it's a huge mess of inconsistency. Either way, I don't see it being a viable solution even in a perfect scenario.

 

[Dsawemd]

Do you remember Web a year ago? Do you remember how it was actually quite large, but when spawning it on players they somehow managed to run out of it almost immediately? Do you remember that you could also get caught in it, and it would basically guarantee your death?

It'd be like that, but less reliable due to the smaller size. If the target was moving at full speed, they would very likely run past the web before it even spawned on them.

Now, you could try and spawn the web, then put the player back in the web to prevent this, but you still have the problem of being able to be caught in it yourself, making it very unlike a stun. Additionally, a web would cause the exact same problem that you are trying to fix. If you are stuck "deep" within a web, you are STUCK in that thing. The web is powerful when it works, awful when it doesn't, but it's a huge mess of inconsistency. Either way, I don't see it being a viable solution even in a perfect scenario.

Just so we are clear.
A single Cob-web will be called Cob-web. The Necro CC skill will be called Web.

new:
The Stunned target now has a dirt block spawn on their feet, and they are moved back to the block. When they take damage the dirt is removed, when they change block location (not Y) the dirt is added. This process rapidly repeats each time they take damage and move for the duration of the stun.
Besides the dirt, this skill would appear to work as if the target was being stunned and knocked around.
Thanks for helping the theorycrafting with your knowledge!

 

[Delfofthebla]

Just so we are clear.
A single Cob-web will be called Cob-web. The Necro CC skill will be called Web.

new:
The Stunned target now has a dirt block spawn on their feet, and they are moved back to the block. When they take damage the dirt is removed, when they change block location (not Y) the dirt is added. This process rapidly repeats each time they take damage and move for the duration of the stun.
Besides the dirt, this skill would appear to work as if the target was being stunned and knocked around.
Thanks for helping the theorycrafting with your knowledge!

This -seems- like it would work, and it might. Of course, assuming we are replacing your dirt block references with a cob-web block. However, this is what is most likely to happen:

1) Player A uses Stun on Player B
2) Player B's location is grabbed.
3) A cobweb-block is placed on Player B's old location.
4) Player B is teleported back to his old location. (At this point, he's already ran passed his old location, and therefore must be teleported back to it.)
5) Player B runs outside of the block
6) Repeat steps 2 through 4
7) Player A hits Player B
8) Player B is in a cobweb, he does not move.
10) Player A hits player B again
11) Player B has been damaged! Remove the web!
12) Player A hits player B again
13) Player B runs away
14) Whoops! Stun duration has expired! Player B keeps running away
15) Player A rages
16) Player A goes to forums to cry
17) Player B also rages and goes to forums to cry because "Stun is still broken. He got machine gunned while in the web."

 

[Dsawemd]

This -seems- like it would work, and it might. Of course, assuming we are replacing your dirt block references with a cob-web block. However, this is what is most likely to happen:

1) Player A uses Stun on Player B
2) Player B's location is grabbed.
3) A cobweb-block is placed on Player B's old location.
4) Player B is teleported back to his old location. (At this point, he's already ran passed his old location, and therefore must be teleported back to it.)
5) Player B runs outside of the block
6) Repeat steps 2 through 4
7) Player A hits Player B
8) Player B is in a cobweb, he does not move.
10) Player A hits player B again
11) Player B has been damaged! Remove the web!
12) Player A hits player B again
13) Player B runs away
14) Whoops! Stun duration has expired! Player B keeps running away
15) Player A rages
16) Player A goes to forums to cry
17) Player B also rages and goes to forums to cry because "Stun is still broken. He got machine gunned while in the web."

I'd think
1) A Stuns B
2) B is Stun Locked to that block, just like Current Stun on Live.
3) Cob-Web is placed at their Feet
4) B is no longer locked to that block.
5) B takes Damage
6) Cob-Web is gone
7) Player enters new Block location
8) If stun duration is still going, go to 2

How quickly could 2-6 be coded in a fight? Would a solid block like dirt work better than cob-web because it will lock them without suffocating and without as much chance to unintentionally catch other players in the Stun?

 

[Egorh]

I don't really think that there is a need to rework stuns. There are only a few of them and it doesn't seem worth the effort to try to change them

 

[Dsawemd]

I don't really think that there is a need to rework stuns. There are only a few of them and it doesn't seem worth the effort to try to change them

Stun is a dangerously difficult CC to balance, as it is currently implemented.

Comments on that? Just because the mechanic is only on a few classes does not mean that it's balance should be marginalized, many mechanics are only shared by a few classes.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I'd think
1) A Stuns B
2) B is Stun Locked to that block, just like Current Stun on Live.
3) Cob-Web is placed at their Feet
4) B is no longer locked to that block.
5) B takes Damage
6) Cob-Web is gone
7) Player enters new Block location
8) If stun duration is still going, go to 2

How quickly could 2-6 be coded in a fight? Would a solid block like dirt work better than cob-web because it will lock them without suffocating and without as much chance to unintentionally catch other players in the Stun?

Solid blocks do not lock players. If a players' feet are inside of a dirt block, he can move around as if it was air. If the dirt block was on his head, the same would be true, but he'd also be taking suffocation damage. The cobweb is used because it actually hinders a player's movement. However, it hinders -all- forms of movement. This of course includes knockback from attacks or skills.

Your steps, 2 through 6, can be completely rather quickly in a fight. However, as I mentioned in my version of the scenario, what you are wanting to occur cannot, and will not occur.

On step 5 of your scenario, the player is damaged. If he were not inhibited by blocks or code, he would be knocked back. With the live version of stuns, we don't monitor damage or anything else. We just constantly check to see if they have changed locations, and then rewind their position if they aren't synced up with it. However, with your suggestion, he would not be controlled at all. We simply would monitor the damage they take, and then if they do take damage, we remove the web. The problem is that the deed has already been done. From the exact moment the player is damaged, he is also knocked back. If he is inside of a web when he is damaged, the knockback will be severely lessened. It does not matter how fast we react to this, it will never remove the web before the "knockback" from damage takes place.

Here is what I am assuming you want:

1) A Stuns B
2) B is Stun Locked to that block, just like Current Stun on Live.
3) Cob-Web is placed at their Feet
4) B is no longer locked to that block.
5) B takes Damage
6) Cob-Web is gone
7) B gets knocked away from A
8) Player enters new Block location
9) If stun duration is still going, go to 2

Here is what you will actually get:

1) A Stuns B
2) B is Stun Locked to that block, just like Current Stun on Live.
3) Cob-Web is placed at their Feet
4) B is no longer locked to that block.
5) B takes Damage
6) B cannot move.
7) Cob-Web is gone
8) In the fraction of the second that the cob-web is removed, B runs about 2 blocks away
9) Player is violently placed back to that marked Block location (as they are with the current stun)
10) If stun duration is still going, go to 2


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I won't say it's not worth the effort to fix it like TrueCorruptor, because I agree that stuns are complete and total bullshit in PvP. However, there just isn't a clean way to go about it yet. No matter what option we choose, it will have holes, it will feel "wonky" or it will just plain not work.

Perhaps there is something a little bit cleaner than what we have now, but a cob-web is not the solution.

The balance trick with stuns is to keep them short on any melee class, and use them more for utility / support roles. Ninja having any form of stun is silly because if the stun is too short, it's worthless, but if it's too long, it's a free win. The blackjack from Bastion was probably the most "balanced" way to handle it, but the RNG factor was unfavorable, and the class was plenty strong even without having it.

 

[Dsawemd]

What about making them stand on a silver fish or chicken baby that is impossible to kill for a duration? Melee damage would still go through in large quantities, but the player could still experience some movement when the mob is hit in the crossfire.

Just keeping the theories coming until someone tells me to STFU.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Your new suggestions don't really sound like they will change the status-quo, and are extremely unclean solutions.

By far the best "stun" mechanic we've ever had was the old piggify skill (From early to mid Bastion). It is possible to modify the skill to perform similar to our stun and function really well. Unfortunately, it had a few exploit issues that made it undesirable.

Ultimately you are looking for an option that will
1) Prevent the player himself from moving or attacking by his own will.
2) Be movable from exterior sources, such as teleports, knockbacks, or relocating abilities.
3) Be bug free.
4) Be exploit free.
5) Appear convincing to other players without looking like something else entirely.

The Herocraft solution is unclean, but only "truly" fails on point #2. The other stuff is fairly solid.

Piggify was solid on points 1 & 2, but had a few bugs, and a major exploit that I could not fix at the time. Unfortunately, removing bugs / exploits must be favored over PvP balance.

The problem with your suggestions is that they still fail on point #2, but also fail on points 1, 3, 5, and possibly even 4. We need something that maintains at least 3 solid points, and hopefully all 5, points. I haven't found a solution on my own, and probably never will unless mojang / bucket updates some stuff.