[Skill] Jump tweaks

[MeganPerk]

I always hated games like mortal combat because you could know all the techniques, but end up losing to some idiot that randomly presses buttons and miraculously wins while not understanding a thing and having no consequence.

Jump is that spam skill for idiots.

Jump is like having 3 skills in one. Its offensive, defensive, and a saving throw. It allows for scaling buildings, surprise attacks, instant escape, and safe landing from high places. Safefall costs 30 mana while jump costs 20 and does so much more than just allows dragoons to land safely. In too many occasions I find the "brave dragoons that leap first into battle" simply spam jump to jump away, not caring where they are jumping as long as its away from the heat of battle. Whats worse is that they don't need to worry because it will safely land them there with its safefall.

I feel that when you make a mistake casting a skill, that mistake should cost you. When a caster casts a spell and the spell misses the target, it costs you. When an archer shoots an arrow and it misses, it costs you. When a healer casts a heal that only heals for 1hp out of the maximum 12hp potential, it costs you.

I think that Jump should either:
1) lose the safefall, or only dampen fall damage by half
2) like healing - require a warm-up that can be interrupted by damage
or 3) cost as much, if not more, mana than the similar skill make-ups. 30-40 mana.

Everyone should look and think before they leap - no excuse for dragoons. If they fling themselves too high, they should take damage. If they miss the ledge because they aimed wrong, they should take damage. If not take damage, than at least make these spells cost something by limiting how often they can simply spam this skill. Allowing for players to prevent them from jumping (as im sure it takes a while to prepare for a heroic leap of such standards) by damaging them, or making this skill cost as much as it would for other specs to achieve the same effects.

Being able to just spam one ability to do everything for you just doesnt seem fair. I also think that the reason so many dragoons litter the server is because of this one ability. It allows for the upper hand on attacks, instant escapes, and the ability to bypass defenses at a low cost of mana and makes almost all of these things 100% safe and think-free.

 

[GraRona]

More mana and/or warmup. Also, if the jump is say over 20 blocks, half fall damage should be enabled. Anything under that and it's safe fall. I agree with this because dragoons are the most popular class at the moment only because of the skill jump (IMO based on logical reasoning).

 

[Dazureus]

It's sort of the nature of the beast. Movement can allow for both offense and defense. It's versatile, which is why the skill is desirable. People can take measures to prevent Dragoons from getting where they don't belong and that sort of design makes clever architects more valuable.

It's quite easy to exhaust your mana as it is if you flail like an idiot. I suppose a small increase, 5-7 can be a good thing, to account for mana regen.
We've seen Jump with no safefall here on HC- it makes for lots of dead Dragoons.
The warm-up option sounds interesting, but it shouldn't be more than a second or two, and with something as short as that I would prefer instant response.

Its SafeFall effect is short-lived and subject to lag. Neither is it flawless, I tend to take up to a heart-and-a-half of damage when using it for that purpose. If anything I would suggest increasing the duration of the skill Safe Fall.

 

[strongholdx]

It's sort of the nature of the beast. Movement can allow for both offense and defense. It's versatile, which is why the skill is desirable. People can take measures to prevent Dragoons from getting where they don't belong and that sort of design makes clever architects more valuable.

It's quite easy to exhaust your mana as it is if you flail like an idiot. I suppose a small increase, 5-7 can be a good thing, to account for mana regen,
We've seen Jump with no safefall here on HC- it makes for lots of dead Dragoons.
The warm-up option sounds interesting, but it shouldn't be more than a second or two, and with something as short as that I would prefer instant response.

It's SafeFall effect is short-lived and subject to lag. Neither is it flawless, I tend to take up to a heart-and-a-half of damage when using it for that purpose. If anything I would suggest increasing the duration of the skill Safe Fall.

These are my thoughts exactly!

Dragoons are of the most versitile warriors there are but are neither very defensive nor offensive, jump gives us the edge we need to survive. notice I didnt say win, but survive. Without jump we'd be dead, and without the 'safefall' we'd be dead too.

Let me break down what your saying here. We should be punished for using the skill that makes dragoons dragoons by having fall damage dealt regardless of wether we use jump or not. Not to mention you already have to time jump correctly for the safefall to work properly.

Secondly I want you to get out of whatever you're sitting in/on and jump. Do it right now, Ill wait

...

Did that requie any casting time? any warm-up? I didn't think so. It works on the same principal in the game as it does in real life - a physical ability does not take time to charge.

Thirdly you state that:

It allows for the upper hand on attacks, instant escapes, and the ability to bypass defenses at a low cost of mana and makes almost all of these things 100% safe and think-free.

Jump can do these things in a 0 lag enviornment. I emplore you to take up dragoon and try to play in Herocraft brand lag. its not an easy thing to do, in fact it can screw you over just as much as hurt you, and just as often. I've been a warrior since day 1 of the Zeal map and been Dragoon since that. Jump is a versitile, nothing more.

Its as if i came here and asked why Dreadknights have such punishing damage abilities. The answer is what daz said a few minutes ago.

It's sort of the nature of the beast.

Dreadknights do damage! On that note, Paladins take damage, and Dragoons move.



The end

 

[Diffuse]

Jump is fine. It provides movement and that's it. The only time jumping is defensive is when you jump away from a bladegrasped samurai or an invisible ninja. Other than that it is running away from a fight, which means the fight is already won for you. The only time jumping is offensive is when they are chasing down a running person which also means the fight is already won, but this time it is won for the dragoon already.

If you are getting surprise attacked by a dragoon then you have no situational awareness and position yourself poorly in a pvp environment. Mistakes are meant to be punished as you say, and not noticing the dragoon positioning himself is a mistake and you get punished. When a dragoon misses his jump he is punished by losing mana. When a dragoon mistimes his jump he gets punished by taking fall damage.

Dragoons are not powerful because of jump, they are powerful because of impale and their tankyness. Jump is the skill that defines dragoons and it does its job well. The reason it is so much better than safefall is because safefall is just an addition to a spec while jump is the essentially the entire spec itself.

 

[MeganPerk]

Dragoons are not powerful because of jump, they are powerful because of impale and their tankyness. Jump is the skill that defines dragoons and it does its job well. The reason it is so much better than safefall is because safefall is just an addition to a spec while jump is the essentially the entire spec itself.

Yes, dragoons are powerful, but I fail to see what being powerful has to do with allowing players to spam the skill repeatedly.

I also agree that jumping is what makes a dragoon - a dragoon. This is why I think that a dragoon should learn how to master the core of their spec instead of simply letting them jump around without any worries in the world.

A healer needs to learn how to master his heals, a caster needs to learn how to master casting, and dragoon should have to learn how to jump efficiently. If jump is such a directly valuable ability to dragoon, then purhaps it should deserve a long cooldown like a paladin's immunity or any other spec's core ability. Otherwise, it should be allowed to be spammable, but made so that it should be spammed correctly, with precautions taken because of the cost of this ability.

If jump is such a worthless skill in combat because "dragoons are not powerful because of jump" and as you say it simply "provides movement" than I don't see what is so bad about making such a useless skill that is spammed for no reason other than for out of combat reasons have a drawback when used incorrectly.

This is why I would think that applying a half-damage safefall to jump would work out just fine. If you jump correctly, you take no damage. That way - "When a dragoon mistimes his jump he gets punished by taking fall damage". When you jump correctly you take no damage, and when you don't, you take reduced damage.

I would actually rather see this take half damage from falling be a passive skill on dragoons since all that jumping makes them able to jump from higher heights and gets their legs used to falling, but simply giving them immunity to fall damage for a skill that is only supposed to "provide movement" just makes the skill spammed and not even thought about at times.

 

[strongholdx]

Megan, I refuse to continue this conversation until you spec dragoon and play it yourself. You have no right to tell a class how their class should be if you don't know how their class currently is. You cant base a class of of one skill. Dragoons depend so much on jump that they'd be effectivly useless in every aspect without it.

Please spec dragoon and then we can continue this conversation

 

[MeganPerk]

So first jump is useless for more than moving but now dragoons would be useless without it... I don't understand which side of the fence ur opinion is on as you seem to keep jumping over it to the other side (see what i did there).

Strongholdx, I have a list of questions for you and other dragoons that are simply in here to protect spammage of jump.
How often do you use jump mid combat to help you dps?
How often do you use jump to close ground on an enemy to fight up close with them?
When you jumping over a horizontal surface to catch up to an enemy, how high are you jumping?
What is the average amount of damage you receive from a horizontal jump?
How often do you use jump for the lols and to simply scale terrain without a worry?
Is finishing off a player worth 4 extra damage?

Dragoons are everywhere, and they are everywhere because of jump.
If we were to make jump unusable mid-air (a.k.a. falling) and instead make jump negate the next fall damage recieved, no matter how tall of a distance they fall, that the spammers would rage. It is essentially the same skill as it was previously - no fall damage from jumping, but now it can no longer be used as an "oh crap. spam the jump button to save your life" button. Jumping should be jumping, not just something spammed for every occasion, and consequences should still take their toll for mistakes.

 

[malmenca]

Jump is the core for dragoons. thats the "nature of the beast" It works because it is offensive defensive and utility, The dragoon doesnt have much else than that. Dragoons are fine, How many times have you played a dragoon btw?

 

[strongholdx]

How often do you use jump mid combat to help you dps?
I don't PvP - I became a dragoon specifically for the movment benifits - however, in response to the actual question, when I DO participate in fights, I use it to go into battle, use it to flee from a battle I will lose, and to chase victims who run. When you go into battle, using jump suprises your enemy and gives you a head start on damage.

How often do you use jump to close ground on an enemy to fight up close with them?
Rarely - only to avoid serious damage or to flee

When you jumping over a horizontal surface to catch up to an enemy, how high are you jumping?
Only 2 or 3 blocks if you are looking straight at the horizon

What is the average amount of damage you receive from a horizontal jump?
Zero Damage as we do not go high enough to take any damage

How often do you use jump for the lols and to simply scale terrain without a worry?
All the damn time - i jump more than walk as it is faster and overall more safe, allowing you to outrun highwaymen

Is finishing off a player worth 4 extra damage?
Do I have 4 extra life to spare? If not, then no


Now go spec dragoon

 

[Kalkyte]

They are kind of hard to deal with as most specs. Unless you have a slow, root or confuse skill it is difficult to beat them, and often times it still is with these skills. A short warmup makes sense, maybe a second or two, but if its too long they would never be able to escape which they need to be able to do as they aren't tanks. Other than that, I think its fine.

 

[strongholdx]

They are kind of hard to deal with as most specs. Unless you have a slow, root or confuse skill it is difficult to beat them, and often times it still is with these skills. A short warmup makes sense, maybe a second or two, but if its too long they would never be able to escape which they need to be able to do as they aren't tanks. Other than that, I think its fine.

On a side note, it has a 3 second cooldown

 

[madsplatter]

For the record, jump isn't this all inclusive magical safe fall thing you are portraying it to be. It is a limited protection, I believe only allowing you 6 blocks of height before taking fall damage. It isn't simply "DURR IMMA JUMP OFF THIS CLIFF lol!!!", it actually takes a fair bit of precision, and timing to hit a jump right. Like stronghold said, don't make these critiques without trying the class yourself.

 

[malmenca]

FUCKING BK RANDY!

 

[MeganPerk]

How often do you use jump mid combat to help you dps?
I don't PvP - I became a dragoon specifically for the movment benifits - however, in response to the actual question, when I DO participate in fights, I use it to go into battle, use it to flee from a battle I will lose, and to chase victims who run. When you go into battle, using jump suprises your enemy and gives you a head start on damage.

How often do you use jump to close ground on an enemy to fight up close with them?
Rarely - only to avoid serious damage or to flee

When you jumping over a horizontal surface to catch up to an enemy, how high are you jumping?
Only 2 or 3 blocks if you are looking straight at the horizon

What is the average amount of damage you receive from a horizontal jump?
Zero Damage as we do not go high enough to take any damage

How often do you use jump for the lols and to simply scale terrain without a worry?
All the damn time - i jump more than walk as it is faster and overall more safe, allowing you to outrun highwaymen

Is finishing off a player worth 4 extra damage?
Do I have 4 extra life to spare? If not, then no

This is exactly my point. In combat, jumping horizontally to catch an enemy or to run away wont even cause you any fall damage. It's become an ability to just spam without a care in the world for the lols. Scaling terrain with jump should be something planned out and thought about, and using it in combat seems to only be a distance breaker that costs 0 damage. I don't get what the big deal is about reducing all fall damage by half and taking away the safefall from jump is about other than "amg i getting nerfed!" rage.

 

[strongholdx]

Ok @Megan - I realize we're sounding a bit like assholes defending our class. But you have no right to say 'Dragoon's main skill needs to be nerfed in this way, this way, and this way, because I cant best them in PvP' just in the same way I have no right to say 'Root is overpowered because it lasts too long, its cooldown is too short and it doesnt let me use jump!'

Have I ever played a class with root? Fuck no! And I probably never will - if I don’t like it, I’m going to buckle down and deal with it. If you play dragoon and honestly see a problem with jump, I will gladly accept you constructive criticism - and I'm happy that you do have this criticism for the community to evaluate - however, having a one sided argument it pointless, the dragoons that 'litter the server' will tear you to bits

So please, go on the test server, master dragoon adn try it out, see it for what it is from the viewpoint of a dragoon, not from another class. Shift you viewpoint to match both sides of the argument and the evaluate the problem.

kthxbai

 

[strongholdx]

This is exactly my point. In combat, jumping horizontally to catch an enemy or to run away wont even cause you any fall damage.

Welcome to minecraft where the only flat surface more than 6 blocks is man made or a lake - chasing someone over terain is not a horizontal jump, it is usually up or down something

 

[Kalkyte]

Keep the discussion to the skill. A little back and forth is good because it provides contrast, but please keep it civil. We all want Herocraft to be balanced; work together to achieve that.

 

[MeganPerk]

I actually can hold my own against dragoons and could care less if I couldn't. I don't see how jump benefits them during pvp other than to escape when I can just pull them back either... I'm not argueing for nerfing dragoons to make them easier to kill. If i was, I'd talk about other things like impale and their amount of HP for a "berserking" class that jumps headfirst into battle. The problem isn't pvp, its having everyone spam a skill and make a dragoon for the sole purpose of one skill because it fixes every problem for you.

 

[malmenca]

kbye,gtfo,playclassb4ubitchgrassyass