Potions...

[MunchlaxHero]

Potions have been out of balanced for some time
Poison gives classes DoTs that do not normally have DoTs and counters core skills for ninja and bard, smoke and accelerando. The removal of them would make the PvP more balanced.
Speed potions is a touchy subject since they are used so widely. Casters right now are already underwhelming in world PvP, this is due to bad terrain and movement enhancements. Casters have a much harder time hitting their skill shots when everyone is moving a lot faster. If you do not have a speed pot you lose to someone that does. Speed lets you stick on someone, run away from someone, or kite better. While health and other potions improve you in PvP, speed gives you almost a for sure win or escape. It is hard to say but the only nerf I can see working is removing them. If you can come up with a better one post here. @Balance Team

 

[0xNaomi]

Maybe add a flag to Speed from potions so it gets removed if in-combat?
Haven't looked at the code in a while, so no implementation idea offhand, but probably doable(?)

 

[MunchlaxHero]

Maybe add a flag to Speed from potions so it gets removed if in-combat?
Haven't looked at the code in a while, so no implementation idea offhand, but probably doable(?)

That could work, since if you are out of combat in PvP its pretty much over, I like that way better.

 

[0xNaomi]

Poked into it for a minute and remembered that our implementation of Potions is just "if you right click it, it counts".
Adding such a thing is impossible with Potion logic as-is.

That said, it seems it's finally possible in the API to check if a potion is actually used (have not tested).
However, that would require a good deal more logic (because Splash potions won't necessarily hit the user) to do.

Poked Kain about it in IRC, posting here for the record and just-in-case.
I'd be up for trying it but unsure if I'll get the OK.

 

[Irishman81]

I personally don't agree with the speed pots, but could probably go with the poison pot change. We've had speed pots in the game for a very very long time, and there really hasn't been an issue. Also relating to speed potions, removing them would just ostracize those without the new custom crafting weapons even more. At least right now both classes can pop a speed pot, but if removed, caster's will get destroyed if up against people with speed+ weapons/armor.

 

[MunchlaxHero]

I personally don't agree with the speed pots, but could probably go with the poison pot change. We've had speed pots in the game for a very very long time, and there really hasn't been an issue. Also relating to speed potions, removing them would just ostracize those without the new custom crafting weapons even more. At least right now both classes can pop a speed pot, but if removed, caster's will get destroyed if up against people with speed+ weapons/armor.

We have already nerfed the speed on those and in the future will be changing them more if they are still too overpowered, they have always been a problem too be honest, just no one had enough courage to challenge what has been in for too long. I do not see why having speed pots benefit the pvp, like I said they are too essential and are kind of stupid that way. If you do not have one you will not be able to run away or chase. Compared to other potions they do a lot more in PvP. PvP should not be based on what items you have and in minecraft speed is too much with the balance. I will be looking into changing zeal and other speed based weapons because I also feel that those are ridiculous, come up with some change ideas tho.

 

[Irishman81]

We have already nerfed the speed on those and in the future will be changing them more if they are still too overpowered, they have always been a problem too be honest, just no one had enough courage to challenge what has been in for too long. I do not see why having speed pots benefit the pvp, like I said they are too essential and are kind of stupid that way. If you do not have one you will not be able to run away or chase. Compared to other potions they do a lot more in PvP. PvP should not be based on what items you have and in minecraft speed is too much with the balance. I will be looking into changing zeal and other speed based weapons because I also feel that those are ridiculous, come up with some change ideas tho.

I don't think its that nobody had the "courage" to bring it up, I just think its actually a fine game mechanic. Any changes to zeal/other armor isnt really going to do anything unless the speed is completely removed, because as I said above, a class like dragoon/ninja could destroy a caster without a zeal weapon.

 

[FaZeAlpine]

@Abyssal lol

The only person who uses poison pots anymore is Abyss, and he uses it only on you.

I agree with Irish regarding the speed pots. I personally think that custom crafting weapons and armor (zeal and stardust) are truly what we should look at in terms of Caster's being countered by movement, not a game mechanic that has existed since the very beginning.

 

[MunchlaxHero]

My two cents on potions:

It has never been properly balanced for heroes and they are not really needed (health potions aren't so bad but speed pots...). I know people argue that since everyone can get speed pots they are 'balanced' but potions (speed) help classes slightly more than others. There is not a whole tonne of clear cut examples of this but more a general concept. For example, a melee class vs a kiting class. The melee class will always be running forward while the kiting class will need to turn around and target. Overall the melee class gets more out of the speed boost.

The melee vs kiting example is just a very general thing and could probably be argued multiple ways but that is not the main reason we shouldn't keep potions (for now, they can be balanced in the future). With speed potions close to every speed boost skill gets ignored and rarely used because that speed 2 for 1:30 is much more powerful than spending mana/stamina for a less impactful speed boost. People do not want to cancel out their speed potion so they just don't use certain skills that should be part of their kit.

Pretty much potions directly take away from Heroes aspects, making them irrelevant.
Health Potions (not so much but technically they diminish healers)->Healing Skills
Speed Potions (the main problem)->Makes close to all speed skills (except accelarondo-spelt wrong) unused

I explained this much better in teamspeak the other week but couldn't really word anything properly here, but you get the point

@Balance Team Kainzo wants us to make a decision on potions, I fully agree with Egorb on this and would like to add the fact that Poison Potions counter Bard and Ninja. Having one potion that can counter a whole class is bad balancing.
My proposal is removing all potions for a time being until we can successfully balance all potions or make them exclusively out of combat.

 

[joshtsai]

I would still like to see health pots around. Even as a person who player who players healers, I think they're balanced and fine. The others are imbalanced and I don't mind seeing them go for now. But RIP any person who still plays alchemist. We need a prof rework as well. @Irishman81

 

[LordZelkova]

Health pots are really helpful when grinding.
I've never seen them make or break a fight like Speed/Poison has.

For now I'm ok with removing the rest until they're balanced out.

 

[Irishman81]

I would still like to see health pots around. Even as a person who player who players healers, I think they're balanced and fine. The others are imbalanced and I don't mind seeing them go for now. But RIP any person who still plays alchemist. We need a prof rework as well. @Irishman81

I suppose I can compromise with speed/poison potions removal. I think health/fire res are fine.

 

[0xNaomi]

I would still suggest redoing potion detection logic and making Speed usable outside combat.
That's just me, though.

 

[LordZelkova]

I would still suggest redoing potion detection logic and making Speed usable outside combat.
That's just me, though.

That would work, how feasible is that?

 

[0xNaomi]

That would work, how feasible is that?

I don't have a full implementation idea offhand, but this is what I know:
Spigot has an event (not sure when it was added) to detect when a potion is actually used instead of just clicked.
However, adding this would require another listener for Splash, as that's its own event (which already existed).

So some unknown-extent rewrites of the Potion skill, and possibly either a rewrite of SpeedEffect (which is Heroes code that I can't touch) or a specific case in Potion skill that extends it (not unusual, lots of skills do) to add the enter combat listener to remove it.

That said, I'm willing to try it if it's OK'd

 

[MunchlaxHero]

I suppose I can compromise with speed/poison potions removal. I think health/fire res are fine.

One health 2 healed me 273 hp, that is a lot and can easily determine the fight if you do not have one and has many times.

I would still like to see health pots around. Even as a person who player who players healers, I think they're balanced and fine. The others are imbalanced and I don't mind seeing them go for now. But RIP any person who still plays alchemist. We need a prof rework as well. @Irishman81

My plan for this is to implement it with factions, survival is fine.

 

[0xNaomi]

One health 2 healed me 273 hp, that is a lot and can easily determine the fight if you do not have one and has many times.

If we can control potion use with this new code, we can control what it does, too.
Granted, that'd be even more logic in Potion skill (which atm is basically "these potions can be used"), but in terms of "can"s, we... can.

 

[LordZelkova]

I don't have a full implementation idea offhand, but this is what I know:
Spigot has an event (not sure when it was added) to detect when a potion is actually used instead of just clicked.
However, adding this would require another listener for Splash, as that's its own event (which already existed).

So some unknown-extent rewrites of the Potion skill, and possibly either a rewrite of SpeedEffect (which is Heroes code that I can't touch) or a specific case in Potion skill that extends it (not unusual, lots of skills do) to add the enter combat listener to remove it.

That said, I'm willing to try it if it's OK'd

Guess this is up to @Kainzo then?

 

[0xNaomi]

Guess this is up to @Kainzo then?

Yeah. Poked him saying the new event exists in IRC but I think I chose a bad time and it went unnoticed.
I technically could try an implementation now, but when dealing with Kainzo I like to be sure it's what's wanted.

 

[MunchlaxHero]

Yeah. Poked him saying the new event exists in IRC but I think I chose a bad time and it went unnoticed.
I technically could try an implementation now, but when dealing with Kainzo I like to be sure it's what's wanted.

I will bring it up next meeting