NobleAlexander
Stone
- Joined
- May 30, 2017
IGN: NobleAlexander
Banned by: @Kenneth_Chow
Time of Ban: 00:20
Reason for ban: Mass Grief
Your story:
Firstly let me start with saying our relations with the township, Cruor has not been great as of recently. We've been raided twice now by their township. Besides that, we've been harassed by them on several occasions. With several times ending in a member of our township's death. That said, due to our lower levels (at the time of the first raid (that said we currently only have one active member who has a max level class)), we decided to ignore the blatant issues prior to the second raid.
Before the second raid, they dug massive trenches around the base with the sole intention of being a hindrance to us. More specifically, they built them to allow a hydromancer, and Spiralz (who was playing extortioner) to use AoE's that would damage us. They kept this onslaught of AoE's going for very close to fifty minutes. Sadly, those trenches no longer exist due to our desire not to let that easily happen again seeing as we had no way to claim more land to prevent them from returning to those trenches as we had 9/9 claims. We would have reported them for grief, but figured for one that the staff team moves at a slug-like pace when it comes to dealing with these type of things (I've seen this with several of my /pe's and currently with this ban (seeing as the action happened and was noticed by an admin nearly 4 hours ago), and the fact that we figured after the blocks had been placed over the trenches a mod/admin wouldn't be able to detect who broke them in the first place (seeing as there is no real information on that type of situation in the wiki/forums that was up to date I had to rely on previous knowledge from being staff on several other servers to say that was unlikely). Furthermore, there isn't enough information on the wiki/rules to determine what is and isn't classified as massive destruction. That said, the tunnels required several stacks upon stacks of cobblestone to completely seal off. The question then remains should that be classified as destruction? Seeing as they most definitely impeded on our territory and forced us to clean up a mess, which took a deal of time and resources to do so. Whether or not you wish to act on this is up to you, but what you should take away from this is the sheer lack of information regarding the rules and plugins limitations leaves several players such as us in a position where we can't get any form of vengeance on them for doing these types of things without prosecution.
Now, let's talk about the atrocious and absolutely vague word choice for the griefing rules that were in place when the action occurred. The only griefing rule in play at the time of the said bannable offense was that massive destruction was disallowed. Keep in mind the word massive is completely subjective, which is already a horrid mistake on the behalf of the staff team. Furthermore, the word destruction typically means "the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired." As can be seen by sites, and dictionaries such as oxford's dictionary (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/destruction). Obviously, all the actions you listed under examples (under this definition) are incorrect. As they can, in fact, be repaired in some amount of time. Which means you had to be acting under the false presumption that destruction refers to a lengthy repair process in which case the examples listed do occasionally apply. That said, you'd have to make an assumption that the person who wrote the rules meant this instead of a truer to word definition, which is something one shouldn't have to do with a given set of rules. As well, let us not forget the fact that what is considered lengthy is once again subjective and up to the individual player to decide what length of repair time would be seen as too much. That aside as stated by a member of the Cruor township the process of repairing would not be a lengthy one and was in fact not that difficult to repair. You can see that within the Herocraft discord chat: http://prntscr.com/fksngd You can check whether or not their words matched my screenshot in the discord. While I am an unable to speak for everyone involved in this incident my main attribution was that large tower of doors, which he commented saying was easy and quick to take down. Each person involved received different lengths seemingly dependent on the severity of their individual involvement. Seeing as I had the lengthiest ban (to my knowledge) mine should be by proxy the hardest and longest thing to tear down/repair and yet it isn't as stated by a member of Cruor themselves.
The problem I see with the ban is that the staff member had obviously acted in a way inappropriate of a staff member. Instead of considering the amount of time needed to repair the land the staff member sought to use the number of blocks placed as a measure of the time required, which is largely inadequate considering several factors. For one, how spread out the blocks are placed, and in this rare case what is under them. For every door placed there is a variable amount of time it will take to break the door that is dependent on the time required to break the block underneath it. As you can see from the screenshots (taken from the herocraft discord) http://prntscr.com/fkst8g a large majority of the doors are placed on top of dirt blocks which can be mined in an instance with a diamond shovel (whether or not it has ef5). In reality, you can think of it as placing the number of iron doors I placed but in about 50% dirt 15% stone, 35% cobblestone. Dirt being able to be mined in the blink of an eye is almost as if it wasn't there. Stone takes 0.3 seconds to break with a diamond pickaxe that is unenchanted (source: http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Stone). Cobblestone takes 0.4 seconds to break with a diamond pickaxe that is unenchanted (source: http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Cobblestone). Dirt takes 0.1 seconds to destroy with a diamond shovel that is unenchanted (source: http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Dirt). If you consider the fact that the township Cruor most definitely has enchanted tools you see that these numbers are going to be significantly lower than shown which means the only thing that will make the process a time consuming one is the location/spread. In this case, a large majority of mine were placed in one central location with an insignificant amount of them veering off from the wall of iron doors. Meaning most of my creation can be dealt with in a short amount of time which is likely (and shockingly) equivalent to the amount of time spent gathering the cobblestone and placing it over the trenches which they dug out around our base.
Not convinced? Let's do some math!
This screenshot shows that there were 30 rows: http://prntscr.com/fkn26y
If we take the Cruor members numbers that 4 rows take 5 minutes... (found here: http://prntscr.com/fkt1ue) we can find some nice information from that.
4rows * x = 5 minutes
Where "x" in this case is the amount of time it takes for each row. Solving for "x" we find each row takes 5/4 a minute or 75 seconds. Keep in mind that he started from the top where it is just cobblestone which has the longest mine time of all the two main blocks found within that tower (dirt and cobblestone). Taking that raw number which is going to be significantly bigger than normal for any row with any dirt in it, we can find the approx time it will take to tear it down.
5/4 minutes *30 rows = ???
5/4*30 = 37.5 minutes
So, the majority of my build will take about 37.5 minutes (keep in mind this is an overestimation) to get rid of completely assuming only one person is doing this at a time. If there are two people it will have the time to 18.75 minutes. Three people? Split that into a third, 12.5 minutes. Four people?! 9.375 minutes. As you can see... it doesn't take long to take down this build and as a direct result, it isn't as severe as it seems at first. In this case, due to the way the rules are set up mass griefing is referring to a massive amount of time needed to repair a specific area completely. Keep in mind that it was your choice to judge each member separately with different lengths based on what they attributed. What I'm getting at is that the length of 3 days is excessive considering the time required to clean up specifically my mess. If said mess would take several hours then it would be understandable, but it doesn't which makes the ban length of 3 days questionable and in fact calls me to question the integrity of the admin responsible for giving said ban. That aside, I hope you reconsider my ban of 3 days after reading the entire post. Even if you don't feel the need to reconsider the ban it is your duty as a staff member to change the rules accordingly to offer more clarity as to avoid issues like the ones stated above.
One last thing about the nature of this incident. Most of the blocks I placed were in that huge wall of iron doors, but in this case the only blocks that matter (when it comes to the wall) is the ones under them. As a result the iron doors are like they don't exist and are instead just rows of floating cobblestone/dirt. Try to keep that in mind.
Thanks,
Noble
P.S. I spent 2.5 hours writing this so hope you at least read it and consider. Keep in mind while this is a ban appeal all the time was not just spent to simply getting my ban repealed/reduced but instead to point out obvious issues with the rules that should be addressed in a timely manner. You can say that my interpretation of the rules is incorrect, but who is to say that an outsider wouldn't say differently than say an admin? That's where the main problem lies with the current set of rules. It isn't as clear cut as it should be.
Banned by: @Kenneth_Chow
Time of Ban: 00:20
Reason for ban: Mass Grief
Your story:
Firstly let me start with saying our relations with the township, Cruor has not been great as of recently. We've been raided twice now by their township. Besides that, we've been harassed by them on several occasions. With several times ending in a member of our township's death. That said, due to our lower levels (at the time of the first raid (that said we currently only have one active member who has a max level class)), we decided to ignore the blatant issues prior to the second raid.
Before the second raid, they dug massive trenches around the base with the sole intention of being a hindrance to us. More specifically, they built them to allow a hydromancer, and Spiralz (who was playing extortioner) to use AoE's that would damage us. They kept this onslaught of AoE's going for very close to fifty minutes. Sadly, those trenches no longer exist due to our desire not to let that easily happen again seeing as we had no way to claim more land to prevent them from returning to those trenches as we had 9/9 claims. We would have reported them for grief, but figured for one that the staff team moves at a slug-like pace when it comes to dealing with these type of things (I've seen this with several of my /pe's and currently with this ban (seeing as the action happened and was noticed by an admin nearly 4 hours ago), and the fact that we figured after the blocks had been placed over the trenches a mod/admin wouldn't be able to detect who broke them in the first place (seeing as there is no real information on that type of situation in the wiki/forums that was up to date I had to rely on previous knowledge from being staff on several other servers to say that was unlikely). Furthermore, there isn't enough information on the wiki/rules to determine what is and isn't classified as massive destruction. That said, the tunnels required several stacks upon stacks of cobblestone to completely seal off. The question then remains should that be classified as destruction? Seeing as they most definitely impeded on our territory and forced us to clean up a mess, which took a deal of time and resources to do so. Whether or not you wish to act on this is up to you, but what you should take away from this is the sheer lack of information regarding the rules and plugins limitations leaves several players such as us in a position where we can't get any form of vengeance on them for doing these types of things without prosecution.
Now, let's talk about the atrocious and absolutely vague word choice for the griefing rules that were in place when the action occurred. The only griefing rule in play at the time of the said bannable offense was that massive destruction was disallowed. Keep in mind the word massive is completely subjective, which is already a horrid mistake on the behalf of the staff team. Furthermore, the word destruction typically means "the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired." As can be seen by sites, and dictionaries such as oxford's dictionary (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/destruction). Obviously, all the actions you listed under examples (under this definition) are incorrect. As they can, in fact, be repaired in some amount of time. Which means you had to be acting under the false presumption that destruction refers to a lengthy repair process in which case the examples listed do occasionally apply. That said, you'd have to make an assumption that the person who wrote the rules meant this instead of a truer to word definition, which is something one shouldn't have to do with a given set of rules. As well, let us not forget the fact that what is considered lengthy is once again subjective and up to the individual player to decide what length of repair time would be seen as too much. That aside as stated by a member of the Cruor township the process of repairing would not be a lengthy one and was in fact not that difficult to repair. You can see that within the Herocraft discord chat: http://prntscr.com/fksngd You can check whether or not their words matched my screenshot in the discord. While I am an unable to speak for everyone involved in this incident my main attribution was that large tower of doors, which he commented saying was easy and quick to take down. Each person involved received different lengths seemingly dependent on the severity of their individual involvement. Seeing as I had the lengthiest ban (to my knowledge) mine should be by proxy the hardest and longest thing to tear down/repair and yet it isn't as stated by a member of Cruor themselves.
The problem I see with the ban is that the staff member had obviously acted in a way inappropriate of a staff member. Instead of considering the amount of time needed to repair the land the staff member sought to use the number of blocks placed as a measure of the time required, which is largely inadequate considering several factors. For one, how spread out the blocks are placed, and in this rare case what is under them. For every door placed there is a variable amount of time it will take to break the door that is dependent on the time required to break the block underneath it. As you can see from the screenshots (taken from the herocraft discord) http://prntscr.com/fkst8g a large majority of the doors are placed on top of dirt blocks which can be mined in an instance with a diamond shovel (whether or not it has ef5). In reality, you can think of it as placing the number of iron doors I placed but in about 50% dirt 15% stone, 35% cobblestone. Dirt being able to be mined in the blink of an eye is almost as if it wasn't there. Stone takes 0.3 seconds to break with a diamond pickaxe that is unenchanted (source: http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Stone). Cobblestone takes 0.4 seconds to break with a diamond pickaxe that is unenchanted (source: http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Cobblestone). Dirt takes 0.1 seconds to destroy with a diamond shovel that is unenchanted (source: http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Dirt). If you consider the fact that the township Cruor most definitely has enchanted tools you see that these numbers are going to be significantly lower than shown which means the only thing that will make the process a time consuming one is the location/spread. In this case, a large majority of mine were placed in one central location with an insignificant amount of them veering off from the wall of iron doors. Meaning most of my creation can be dealt with in a short amount of time which is likely (and shockingly) equivalent to the amount of time spent gathering the cobblestone and placing it over the trenches which they dug out around our base.
Not convinced? Let's do some math!
This screenshot shows that there were 30 rows: http://prntscr.com/fkn26y
If we take the Cruor members numbers that 4 rows take 5 minutes... (found here: http://prntscr.com/fkt1ue) we can find some nice information from that.
4rows * x = 5 minutes
Where "x" in this case is the amount of time it takes for each row. Solving for "x" we find each row takes 5/4 a minute or 75 seconds. Keep in mind that he started from the top where it is just cobblestone which has the longest mine time of all the two main blocks found within that tower (dirt and cobblestone). Taking that raw number which is going to be significantly bigger than normal for any row with any dirt in it, we can find the approx time it will take to tear it down.
5/4 minutes *30 rows = ???
5/4*30 = 37.5 minutes
So, the majority of my build will take about 37.5 minutes (keep in mind this is an overestimation) to get rid of completely assuming only one person is doing this at a time. If there are two people it will have the time to 18.75 minutes. Three people? Split that into a third, 12.5 minutes. Four people?! 9.375 minutes. As you can see... it doesn't take long to take down this build and as a direct result, it isn't as severe as it seems at first. In this case, due to the way the rules are set up mass griefing is referring to a massive amount of time needed to repair a specific area completely. Keep in mind that it was your choice to judge each member separately with different lengths based on what they attributed. What I'm getting at is that the length of 3 days is excessive considering the time required to clean up specifically my mess. If said mess would take several hours then it would be understandable, but it doesn't which makes the ban length of 3 days questionable and in fact calls me to question the integrity of the admin responsible for giving said ban. That aside, I hope you reconsider my ban of 3 days after reading the entire post. Even if you don't feel the need to reconsider the ban it is your duty as a staff member to change the rules accordingly to offer more clarity as to avoid issues like the ones stated above.
One last thing about the nature of this incident. Most of the blocks I placed were in that huge wall of iron doors, but in this case the only blocks that matter (when it comes to the wall) is the ones under them. As a result the iron doors are like they don't exist and are instead just rows of floating cobblestone/dirt. Try to keep that in mind.
Thanks,
Noble
P.S. I spent 2.5 hours writing this so hope you at least read it and consider. Keep in mind while this is a ban appeal all the time was not just spent to simply getting my ban repealed/reduced but instead to point out obvious issues with the rules that should be addressed in a timely manner. You can say that my interpretation of the rules is incorrect, but who is to say that an outsider wouldn't say differently than say an admin? That's where the main problem lies with the current set of rules. It isn't as clear cut as it should be.
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