Major Class Revamping - Lets Do It Properly

[Egorh]

There has been some talk/discussion going around about revamping all the classes to a lower skill count/a simpler setup. When I hear this I think that we want to simplify classes but keep the same 'feel' each class has. What I personally don't want to see is classes simply 'compressed' (multiple skills thrown into one).

Because of the possibility of joining a network like Kainzo mentioned this should be done right the first time so there won't be a need to do such a large revamp again.

A lot of what I'm suggesting is going to require new skills/code and a lot of balancing

A couple notes:
I've tried to evenly space all skills and make the level cap 30.
Major balancing number/gameplay balancing would have to be done before fully releasing the revamp.

Dragoon - I'm trying to emphasize what people like the most about the class by adding things that revolve around it, Jumping

• *NEW* Rust (name?) (Passive) - Level 1
  • Every X seconds your left click applies a small bleed
• PiercingStrike (Activate) - Level 1
• Jump (Activate) - Level 5
• *NEW* Smash (Activate) - Level 10
  • While in air (or just a couple seconds after you use jump) from Jump you target an area to smash towards. This skill would be like dragonsmash but you could target a position and it would only be usable in combination with Jump
• Spear (Activate) - Level 15
• LunarLance (Activate) - Level 20
• *NEW* Stretch (Activate, warmup) - Level 25
  • Gives speed II for a short amount of time and empowers the next use of jump (if jump is used during the effect duration)
• Tremor (Activate) - Level 30

Ninja - I haven't been happy with Ninja for a long time and I guess this is another opportunity to make it more like what people would expect from a Ninja

• *NEW* Sneak (name?) (Passive) - Level 1
  • The ninja is permanently sneaked
• Kick (Activate) - Level 1
• Envenom (Activate) - Level 5
• Blind (Activate) - Level 10
• *NEW* Hide (Activate, togglable) - Level 15
  • Invisibility toggle that drains mana (exit conditions would be the same as smoke)
• Eviscerate (Activate) - Level 20
• *NEW* Backflip (Activate) - Level 25
  • The regular backflip that will throw shurikens (even without the skill shuriken) and also work as a CC escape
• Backstab (Passive) - Level 30

Monk (Aka Disciple) - Trying to keep the fun parts of disciple but keep it relevant in both its roles

• FistOfJin (Passive) - Level 1
• Smite (Activate) - Level 1
• Forcepush (Activate) - Level 5
• FlyingKick (Activate) - Level 10
• Forcepull (Activate) - Level 15
• *NEW* Serenity (Activate) - Level 20
  • Much like the current serenity but toss on a debuff
• Balance (Activate) - Level 25
• *NEW* QuiveringPalm (Activate) - Level 30
  • Get rid of the damage increase but add a disarm and silence (its now mean't to disable someone completely).

Samurai

• *NEW* SharpEdge (Passive) - Level 1
  • X percent of your left click damage goes through armor
• Strike (Activate) - Level 1
• *NEW* MightyBlow (Activate) - Level 5
  • Add in interrupt to the original mighty blow
• *NEW* MortalWound (Activate) - Level 10
  • Add a small slow
• Masamune (Activate) - Level 15
• Bladegrasp (Activate) - Level 20
• ParryMagic (Activate) - Level 25
• InfernoBlade (Activate) - Level 30

ShadowKnight

• *NEW* Disease (Passive) - Level 1
  • All abilities apply a minor slow
• Atrophy (Activate) - Level 1
• Darkscythe (Activate) - Level 5
• Soulleech (Activate) - Level 10
• DreadAura (Activate) - Level 15
• *NEW* ManaFreeze (Activate) - Level 20
  • AOE version of current mana freeze
• *NEW* Empathy (Activate) - Level 25
  • Add in curse to original empathy
• Desecration (Activate) - Level 30

Paladin

• *NEW* (name?) (Passive) - Level 1
  • Party members around you take X% less damage
• *NEW* Pummel (Activate) - Level 1
  • Bleed, slow, interrupt
• Absolution (Activate) - Level 5
• HolyAura (Activate) - Level 10
• Reckoning (Activate) - Level 15
• DivineStun (Activate) - Level 20
• ShieldReflect (Activate) - Level 25
• Consecration (Activate) - Level 30

Brawler (aka Berserker)

• BerserkerRage (Passive) - Level 1
• Maim (Activate) - Level 1
• *NEW* WhirlDrinker (Activate) - Level 5
  • Whirlwind that gives you health back for the damage dealt
• Frenzy (Activate) - Level 10
• ThrowAxe (Activate) - Level 15
• Headbutt (Activate) - Level 20
• *NEW* Rupture (Activate) - Level 25
  • Along with the regular rupture, the more they move the stronger their slow is and while their ruptured the player gets a speed boost
• UndyingWill (Activate) - Level 30

Ranger

• *NEW* Sneak (Same one as ninja) (Passive) - Level 1
• SummonArrow (Activate) - Level 1
• Maim (Activate) - Level 5
• ExplosiveShot (Activate) - Level 10
• Track (Activate) - Level 15
• AimedShot (Active) - Level 20
• GrapplingShot - Level 25
• *NEW* RuptureShot - Level 30
  • Make it so it applies the actual rupture effect from Berserker (currently it is just a DOT), and add a slow

Bard

• *NEW* Tempo (Passive) - Level 1
  • Every X seconds allies gain Y mana and Z stamina
• Kick (Activate) - Level 1
• *NEW* WarSongOfHealing (name?) (Activate) - Level 5
  • Allies gain bonus damage for X seconds and are healed periodically during the duration
  • NOTE: Bonus damage for everything, not just weapons
• Envenom (Activate) - Level 10
• *NEW* BoastfulBellow (Activate) - Level 15
  • The same skill except slow those who are hit aswell
• VoidSong (Activate) - Level 20
• DropTheBass+Accelerando (Activate) - Level 25
• DoomstarRequiem (Activate) - Level 30

I have ideas for the other classes but I feel like I wouldn't be able to 'revamp' them to the same standard as others.

Early on in this post I said we should avoid just compressing classes but after going through things I still managed to do that a few times. If someone has a better idea it would be best to post it.

@Balance Team @Kainzo

 

[Kainzo]

So basically, I dont like the shared abilities.

Kick and Envenom are lack luster and shouldnt be granted to "all" lets have unique abilities --- ESPECIALLY if we are limiting skills (which i think is a MUST have to get more newbies into the server and have us attached to much larger networks)

We don't have to just compress things, but I think its smart to compress logical things.

Bard is already in the works for compression by Donal. We're combining 9 songs into 4, or just about, they will benefit GREATLY from this


I also do not want the level cap to be lowered to 30, I would like to grant more skills at level 1 (2-3?) instead of just 1. Not including the PASSIVE skill that all classes should get.

 

[Jrr_]

Ninja - Skill hide, would like to see it drain stamina instead of mana, 1 stamina bar per second so after 7 seconds you can't sprint. Seems like a good time.

 

[Egorh]

Ninja - Skill hide, would like to see it drain stamina instead of mana, 1 stamina bar per second so after 7 seconds you can't sprint. Seems like a good time.

I'd rather add a constant slow. The goal is to come from far away, invisible, and then go into a fight. You wouldn't be able to do that without stamina.

So basically, I dont like the shared abilities.

Kick and Envenom are lack luster and shouldnt be granted to "all" lets have unique abilities --- ESPECIALLY if we are limiting skills (which i think is a MUST have to get more newbies into the server and have us attached to much larger networks)

We don't have to just compress things, but I think its smart to compress logical things.

Bard is already in the works for compression by Donal. We're combining 9 songs into 4, or just about, they will benefit GREATLY from this


I also do not want the level cap to be lowered to 30, I would like to grant more skills at level 1 (2-3?) instead of just 1. Not including the PASSIVE skill that all classes should get.

For recurring skills do you want unique functionality (brand new code), or a basic copy (something like DarkScyth for Envenom). Renaming the skills would allow us to balance them individually for each class while for new skills we would have to come up with some ideas.

For the bard revamp I think it is important to keep some of the stronger abilities with their original capabilities (like Void Song) because you don't want a 'One Button' and done class. The point of this thread is to discuss how to best go about revamping classes so we end up with the best result so we should try to avoid finalizing things till more people get a look at what is to come.

I suppose level cap doesn't really matter, people look at it in different ways. When a new player comes in are they more likely to stay if the level cap is a lower number. Or is it better to give more gratification with a level cap off 60.

Level cap of 30 worked out quite nicely because I was able to evenly spread skills without having odd levels.

 

[Kainzo]

I'd rather add a constant slow. The goal is to come from far away, invisible, and then go into a fight. You wouldn't be able to do that without stamina.



For recurring skills do you want unique functionality (brand new code), or a basic copy (something like DarkScyth for Envenom). Renaming the skills would allow us to balance them individually for each class while for new skills we would have to come up with some ideas.

For the bard revamp I think it is important to keep some of the stronger abilities with their original capabilities (like Void Song) because you don't want a 'One Button' and done class. The point of this thread is to discuss how to best go about revamping classes so we end up with the best result so we should try to avoid finalizing things till more people get a look at what is to come.

I suppose level cap doesn't really matter, people look at it in different ways. When a new player comes in are they more likely to stay if the level cap is a lower number. Or is it better to give more gratification with a level cap off 60.

Level cap of 30 worked out quite nicely because I was able to evenly spread skills without having odd levels.

Initial renames are "okay" but I think the long term goal is to have unique classes entirely with no (or very little overlaps).

The cap really should be Level 50, IMO (this is what it was a long time ago). I liked increasing the cap as well, it was pretty fun to have people rush to the next 5 levels, etc.

 

[victim130]

At first glance (I'll take a longer look when I'm more awake) I'd like to see the Sneak passive for ninja be turned off if they take damage. Maybe then after X seconds out of combat it returns or not taking damage at least. This way it adds a level of risk to their playstyle. If they want that sweet extra backstab damage, they need to play it safe.

As for ranger, I'd like to see them get a sneak equivalent, but I do not agree with them having a similar situation to ninja. Maybe have it linked to camouflage. If they stand still in nature for X seconds they turn invis and if they move they stay sneaked until they take damage? I'm not sure if I like that either tbh, but its just an idea. As for Rupture shot, I feel the slow might be ok, but we've dealt with ranger having long range CC before and it becomes very powerful and dominates the meta. If Rupture shot still dealt a regular bleed and then a minor slow based only on 1 arrow. I think that could be fine. Just up the damage to make up for it a bit and give it a short cooldown.

Samurai looks good. My original idea was to remove strike, buff mortal wound (A slow is fine if we remove kotesu), remove mightyblow and then buff murasame with a short knockback. (Also removing ashura). I was also thinking of putting parry magic and bladegrasp together and then having masamune be more of a slash-dash with a shorter burst of speed attached to it.

The only gripe I have personally, is that strike and mightyblow are very boring skills. Also, thoughts on giving Infernoblade a slight mana burn and lowering its cooldown to be around a minute?

Everything else looks good at a glance, we'd just need to mess around with them in test.

 

[victim130]

At first glance (I'll take a longer look when I'm more awake) I'd like to see the Sneak passive for ninja be turned off if they take damage. Maybe then after X seconds out of combat it returns or not taking damage at least. This way it adds a level of risk to their playstyle. If they want that sweet extra backstab damage, they need to play it safe.

As for ranger, I'd like to see them get a sneak equivalent, but I do not agree with them having a similar situation to ninja. Maybe have it linked to camouflage. If they stand still in nature for X seconds they turn invis and if they move they stay sneaked until they take damage? I'm not sure if I like that either tbh, but its just an idea. As for Rupture shot, I feel the slow might be ok, but we've dealt with ranger having long range CC before and it becomes very powerful and dominates the meta. If Rupture shot still dealt a regular bleed and then a minor slow based only on 1 arrow. I think that could be fine. Just up the damage to make up for it a bit and give it a short cooldown.

Samurai looks good. My original idea was to remove strike, buff mortal wound (A slow is fine if we remove kotesu), remove mightyblow and then buff murasame with a short knockback. (Also removing ashura). I was also thinking of putting parry magic and bladegrasp together and then having masamune be more of a slash-dash with a shorter burst of speed attached to it.

The only gripe I have personally, is that strike and mightyblow are very boring skills. Also, thoughts on giving Infernoblade a slight mana burn and lowering its cooldown to be around a minute?

Everything else looks good at a glance, we'd just need to mess around with them in test.

So after taking another look, I realize I didn't cover nearly enough of this. I'll go from class to class in this new post.

Dragoon:
Stretch - This skill gives some really heavy mobility to a class with some pretty intense mobility. It also only serves a purpose to buff jump. Maybe this could be impale instead.
Tremor - While this is great, smash serves the same purpose. Maybe instead put seismic assault here.
Rust - Instead of the bleed, why not add a passive that increases dex to a cap for each melee attack (1 point per attack up to a cap of 10-15) and have it last for like 10 seconds. This would buff jump and in turn could buff smash.

Ninja:
Sneak- If we do keep it as a passive, like I said, I would prefer it to unsneak upon taking damage and then maybe 5 seconds of being out of combat/taking damage it will reactivate. This could also be kept as a skill and just use backstab as a passive.
Hide- Its cool, but it would allow a guaranteed opening backstab. If we were to make it use mana instead of stamina, it should just be placed as a duration instead and should not be able to be used in combat. I'd also like to see a proximity alert system tied to this, but I'm not sure how we could do this.
Backflip- I like the idea of combining escape artist, but lets not give them the speed boost.

Monk:
Serenity- Would probably make sense to instead give them chakra. Without a cleanse this class really stops fitting its healer role.
Quivering Palm- Your version is an all counter that can be used on anyone. It makes more sense in my head to remove the silence as the class is a martial artist.
Smite- Instead of giving them a targeted attack, why not replace this with renewal and then buff flying kick.

Samurai:
SharpEdge- I don't think this is possible to code. Instead, we could maybe give a momentum themed passive that gives movement speed based on cooldowns or as you land melee attacks you gain more damage.
As for the rest of samurai, see my original post.

Shadowknight:
Manafreeze- What if instead of this skill we replace it with manaleech. Where it would instead burn the mana of a target and give you a portion back.
Disease- I really like this, but it could easily be broken. We will need to tweak this a lot.
Darkscythe- We had talks about adding in a hook like ability, instead of giving them a buff to auto attacks, make it an ability that forces a target to the block in front of you. This would also help make them a tank with the ability to peel for healers and squish.
DarkAura- While I'm not saying we NEED to change this, I think it would be cool to shift the idea that Shadowknights should be trying to keep their mana up with Manaleech to stay alive with this skill.

Paladin:
Passive- Call it Guardian's Aura and instead of flat % reduction (Which could become really over powered very fast) I have 3 possible ideas: Heals on the paladin heal more (% increase to the paladin and maybe a nerf to absolution), AoE regen to people within 5 blocks of the paladin, Damage mitigation upon the paladin being healed (Use the resistance potion effect maybe?)
Pummel- Get rid of the bleed, call it shield bash and then make it slow IF they interrupt.
HolyAura- This will end up being a cleric ability so maybe it could be replaced with an intervene type ability that moves you to target party member and take a portion of their damage for a time OR heal them.

Brawler:
Rupture- This ability is honestly fine as is, maybe a slow, but its honestly already going to be a painful attack to anyone running for their lives.

Ranger:
See my original post

Bard:
I honestly have never touched the class, but I'm sure @Hydroking77 who is also on the team could have a better idea.

Next I'd like to see the other classes laid out. @Kainzo Any chance you could make a post that outlines what you have (Like what we had in the beta)

 

[Hydroking77]

As a Bard main right now, I personally feel that the only changes that need to be made is combining Mana and Battlesong and possibly combining DoomstarRequiem and BoastfulBellow. Warsong and HealingChorus do not need to be combined. Why would I need to heal my party when I buff them with War Song before the fight starts? The passive should not be Mana/Battlesong. In a team fight where two groups are fighting I should be able to Accelerando to the other party and drop my buff then run back to the group I am fighting with. With that said, what happened to Accelerando? Would we not get a party speed buff anymore? I cannot think of a passive as of right now, but it should not be that.

EDIT: Additionally combine SongofRespiration and DroptheBass

 

[Egorh]

As a Bard main right now, I personally feel that the only changes that need to be made is combining Mana and Battlesong and possibly combining DoomstarRequiem and BoastfulBellow. Warsong and HealingChorus do not need to be combined. Why would I need to heal my party when I buff them with War Song before the fight starts? The passive should not be Mana/Battlesong. In a team fight where two groups are fighting I should be able to Accelerando to the other party and drop my buff then run back to the group I am fighting with. With that said, what happened to Accelerando? Would we not get a party speed buff anymore? I cannot think of a passive as of right now, but it should not be that.

EDIT: Additionally combine SongofRespiration and DroptheBass

Did I not add accelerando? My bad. I had mean't to.

Edit: Added accelerando and drop the bass together (looks like theyll work decently together in my head). And is there any point in bothering to include song of respiration, how often does a group go mass drowning (except for towns in water like yours).

So after taking another look, I realize I didn't cover nearly enough of this. I'll go from class to class in this new post.

Dragoon:
Stretch - This skill gives some really heavy mobility to a class with some pretty intense mobility. It also only serves a purpose to buff jump. Maybe this could be impale instead.
Tremor - While this is great, smash serves the same purpose. Maybe instead put seismic assault here.
Rust - Instead of the bleed, why not add a passive that increases dex to a cap for each melee attack (1 point per attack up to a cap of 10-15) and have it last for like 10 seconds. This would buff jump and in turn could buff smash.

Ninja:
Sneak- If we do keep it as a passive, like I said, I would prefer it to unsneak upon taking damage and then maybe 5 seconds of being out of combat/taking damage it will reactivate. This could also be kept as a skill and just use backstab as a passive.
Hide- Its cool, but it would allow a guaranteed opening backstab. If we were to make it use mana instead of stamina, it should just be placed as a duration instead and should not be able to be used in combat. I'd also like to see a proximity alert system tied to this, but I'm not sure how we could do this.
Backflip- I like the idea of combining escape artist, but lets not give them the speed boost.

Monk:
Serenity- Would probably make sense to instead give them chakra. Without a cleanse this class really stops fitting its healer role.
Quivering Palm- Your version is an all counter that can be used on anyone. It makes more sense in my head to remove the silence as the class is a martial artist.
Smite- Instead of giving them a targeted attack, why not replace this with renewal and then buff flying kick.

Samurai:
SharpEdge- I don't think this is possible to code. Instead, we could maybe give a momentum themed passive that gives movement speed based on cooldowns or as you land melee attacks you gain more damage.
As for the rest of samurai, see my original post.

Shadowknight:
Manafreeze- What if instead of this skill we replace it with manaleech. Where it would instead burn the mana of a target and give you a portion back.
Disease- I really like this, but it could easily be broken. We will need to tweak this a lot.
Darkscythe- We had talks about adding in a hook like ability, instead of giving them a buff to auto attacks, make it an ability that forces a target to the block in front of you. This would also help make them a tank with the ability to peel for healers and squish.
DarkAura- While I'm not saying we NEED to change this, I think it would be cool to shift the idea that Shadowknights should be trying to keep their mana up with Manaleech to stay alive with this skill.

Paladin:
Passive- Call it Guardian's Aura and instead of flat % reduction (Which could become really over powered very fast) I have 3 possible ideas: Heals on the paladin heal more (% increase to the paladin and maybe a nerf to absolution), AoE regen to people within 5 blocks of the paladin, Damage mitigation upon the paladin being healed (Use the resistance potion effect maybe?)
Pummel- Get rid of the bleed, call it shield bash and then make it slow IF they interrupt.
HolyAura- This will end up being a cleric ability so maybe it could be replaced with an intervene type ability that moves you to target party member and take a portion of their damage for a time OR heal them.

Brawler:
Rupture- This ability is honestly fine as is, maybe a slow, but its honestly already going to be a painful attack to anyone running for their lives.

Ranger:
See my original post

Bard:
I honestly have never touched the class, but I'm sure @Hydroking77 who is also on the team could have a better idea.

Next I'd like to see the other classes laid out. @Kainzo Any chance you could make a post that outlines what you have (Like what we had in the beta)

Dragoon: My intention is to keep a lot of the game play focus on jump, stretch does just this. While playing Dragoon this map I did not find many opportunities to even make use of impale. Tremor =/= smash. Tremor is basically a group forcepush while smash would be damage in an area (the two skills would play different roles). Although I would still go either way with tremor/seismic assault. I also like your idea for the passive better.

Ninja: Keeping sneak as a passive is what I would like to see and I agree that taking damage should take you out of sneak for a certain amount of time. I'm fine for Hide not being usable in combat because it would be more for openings. Appear wreck someone, get out. Do people really need a warning that they are going to die from a class thats mean't to be hidden? For stuff like this we shouldn't have to hold people's hands. Being in an unsafe area means the possibility of danger.

Monk: I had mentioned in my original post that serenity would have a debuff (a cleanse) on it. I disagree for smite being replaced because that simple spammed magic damage is what allows Monk to stand a chance against armored targets. Renewal as a teamfight skill is not that good because while you try to target and then warmup, you would be able to interrupt someone's casting. I agree with quivering palm.

Samurai: I doubt the way I described the skill could be coded either but you could accomplish the same effect by adding a type of constant envenom type skill.

ShadowKnight. For manafreeze, why not both? I would like to keep the AOE effect to give shadowknight another purpose in a group fight (countering mana-dependent classes). I am personally not a fan of shadowknight having a copy of envenom so I am all for changing it (always felt like a filler skill).

Paladin: Taunt is a very strong paladin skill, with two paladin's you can keep a constant 50% damage reduction up for the party. A single paladin with taunt still provides a lot of its group usefulness. Having a constant % damage reduction (obviously much lower than 50%) will probably be less strong than the current taunt. I do like the damage mitigation idea though. Could we possibly use it for the cleric passive, whoever is healed gains some damage mitigation. Pummel-agreed but I think it might be a bit weak if it only slows when it interrupts. And for the replacement for holy aura, perhaps a lunge to a teammate that gives them protection/heal

Brawler: The main reason adding such things to rupture is because the removal of lunge/toss (it still feels like a slow class even with lunge).

 

[PewPewPewLasers]

As a Bard main right now, I personally feel that the only changes that need to be made is combining Mana and Battlesong and possibly combining DoomstarRequiem and BoastfulBellow. Warsong and HealingChorus do not need to be combined. Why would I need to heal my party when I buff them with War Song before the fight starts? The passive should not be Mana/Battlesong. In a team fight where two groups are fighting I should be able to Accelerando to the other party and drop my buff then run back to the group I am fighting with. With that said, what happened to Accelerando? Would we not get a party speed buff anymore? I cannot think of a passive as of right now, but it should not be that.

EDIT: Additionally combine SongofRespiration and DroptheBass

I disagree with this. Because healingchorus is a HoT, it's better to get it off sooner rather than later. Using this new skill before a fight will let you start the healing and get the extra damage, so in the middle of the fight you don't have to wait for your heals to start. Having the stamina and mana regen is very very important for bard and I think it works incredibly well as a passive. Making bard a more active class and less of a buff bot I think will make the class more fun and allow you to focus more on the fight and less on your buffs, while still having to manage a few core ones. It gives you more opportunity to be good at disrupting during fights and keeping party members topped off. At this point, bard just spams all of its keys on cooldown, so I think Egorh's passive takes away that aspect and puts more power into meaningful spells. Also, combining doomstar and boastfulbellow would not be a good idea in my opinion. Boastfulbellow is a core damage skill for bard as well as an interrupt, and if you want to combine that with essentially a tremor you're going to be either wasting an interrupt, a knockback, and in the former case damage.

I have played a LOT of Bard over the past 6 years so I do consider myself educated in this class

 

[Egorh]

Irrelevant information was here (edited out so people don't look at information thats not going to happen at all)

 

[Kainzo]

@Balance Team | @Heralds

This is a very important part of the server and we are extremely behind on this.
I have been mostly silent here but there are moves we must do to make Herocraft classes up to par with other servers and so large networks will want to funnel players to us.

Do not take this the wrong way, but this is the mandate that MUST be rolled out, you can disagree, but really think about the big picture here and you will agree with me. My primary focus is to see the larger picture, the life breath of the server and its sustainability.

1. Skills need to be AMAZING, visually and utility wise.
2. Skills need to be SKILL SHOTS unless debuffs, AE debuff, buff, this includes MELEE attacks, such as CLEAVE, Mstrike, STRIKE, etc.
3. Skills need to be the MAJORITY of damage done by your class to lessen the severity and need of SWINGING. RIght now its 80/20 and it should be closer to 40/60 (40% left click, 60% skill dmg)
4. Skills must be SIMPLISTIC but synergistic. (A person ICE ROOTED, will take MORE damage from ICE spells, etc)
5. Skill spam needs to be reduced and floating GUI (or other areas need to be used)
6. Classes must have MORE passives 1-2 passives PER class that DEFINE the class. This includes LIFE STEAL, MANA STEAL, MORE DMG on MELEE, etc. Passives should DEFINE the class, not simply bolster their already known influence.
7. The NEWBIE must be able to FULLY embrace the PVP aspect of the server with LITTLE egress. They need to be shown immediately what is the proven way to win and then by SKILL, they win or lose.
8. Classes must be PLENTIFUL but also SIMPLE and LIMITED in scope but POWERFUL enough to be hard to master.
9. Classes need sustainable abilities at level 1, (So more than 1 ability so they can survive and feel invited to the server)
10. Classes must have more than one role to play, a ninja could be stealthy AND high dmg, a Paladin can soak damage AND heal, beguilers can DMG and Crowd Control, etc.
11. Classes need to start with their gear even if basic and hotbars already on the bar.
12. Item system must be SIMPLE at start, with incremental (slight) increases with upgrades (Steel Sword +1 could give 1hp, the +5 vs could give 10hp)
13. There must be a high end other than mindess slaying (Castles, Township upgrades, better item upgrades, pvp arenas, PVE encounters, etc)

The specifics of cooldowns, damage, etc don't mean much to me and I truly leave that to the specialists (balance team). What means to me is the class lay out, each class is unqiue, feels like they have more than one role to play and is ENJOYABLE from START to FINISH.

 

[Egorh]

@Balance Team | @Heralds

This is a very important part of the server and we are extremely behind on this.
I have been mostly silent here but there are moves we must do to make Herocraft classes up to par with other servers and so large networks will want to funnel players to us.

Do not take this the wrong way, but this is the mandate that MUST be rolled out, you can disagree, but really think about the big picture here and you will agree with me. My primary focus is to see the larger picture, the life breath of the server and its sustainability.

1. Skills need to be AMAZING, visually and utility wise.
2. Skills need to be SKILL SHOTS unless debuffs, AE debuff, buff, this includes MELEE attacks, such as CLEAVE, Mstrike, STRIKE, etc.
3. Skills need to be the MAJORITY of damage done by your class to lessen the severity and need of SWINGING. RIght now its 80/20 and it should be closer to 40/60 (40% left click, 60% skill dmg)
4. Skills must be SIMPLISTIC but synergistic. (A person ICE ROOTED, will take MORE damage from ICE spells, etc)
5. Classes must have MORE passives 1-2 passives PER class that DEFINE the class. This includes LIFE STEAL, MANA STEAL, MORE DMG on MELEE, etc. Passives should DEFINE the class, not simply bolster their already known influence.
6. The NEWBIE must be able to FULLY embrace the PVP aspect of the server with LITTLE egress. They need to be shown immediately what is the proven way to win and then by SKILL, they win or lose.
7. Classes must be PLENTIFUL but also SIMPLE and LIMITED in scope but POWERFUL enough to be hard to master.
8. Classes need sustainable abilities at level 1, (So more than 1 ability so they can survive and feel invited to the server)
9. Classes must have more than one role to play, a ninja could be stealthy AND high dmg, a Paladin can soak damage AND heal, beguilers can DMG and Crowd Control, etc.
10. Classes need to start with their gear even if basic and hotbars already on the bar.
11. Item system must be SIMPLE at start, with incremental (slight) increases with upgrades (Steel Sword +1 could give 1hp, the +5 vs could give 10hp)
12. There must be a high end other than mindess slaying (Castles, Township upgrades, better item upgrades, pvp arenas, PVE encounters, etc)

The specifics of cooldowns, damage, etc don't mean much to me and I truly leave that to the specialists (balance team). What means to me is the class lay out, each class is unqiue, feels like they have more than one role to play and is ENJOYABLE from START to FINISH.

Together with a few others we managed to bang out some classes that are pretty close to the list. The goal when designing them is for them to fill a specific role and for it to be fun.

A lot of class revamps in my previous post are going to have to be disregarded and there is going to be a lot more work from coders to get this done.

 

[victim130]

@Balance Team | @Heralds

This is a very important part of the server and we are extremely behind on this.
I have been mostly silent here but there are moves we must do to make Herocraft classes up to par with other servers and so large networks will want to funnel players to us.

Do not take this the wrong way, but this is the mandate that MUST be rolled out, you can disagree, but really think about the big picture here and you will agree with me. My primary focus is to see the larger picture, the life breath of the server and its sustainability.

1. Skills need to be AMAZING, visually and utility wise.
2. Skills need to be SKILL SHOTS unless debuffs, AE debuff, buff, this includes MELEE attacks, such as CLEAVE, Mstrike, STRIKE, etc.
3. Skills need to be the MAJORITY of damage done by your class to lessen the severity and need of SWINGING. RIght now its 80/20 and it should be closer to 40/60 (40% left click, 60% skill dmg)
4. Skills must be SIMPLISTIC but synergistic. (A person ICE ROOTED, will take MORE damage from ICE spells, etc)
5. Classes must have MORE passives 1-2 passives PER class that DEFINE the class. This includes LIFE STEAL, MANA STEAL, MORE DMG on MELEE, etc. Passives should DEFINE the class, not simply bolster their already known influence.
6. The NEWBIE must be able to FULLY embrace the PVP aspect of the server with LITTLE egress. They need to be shown immediately what is the proven way to win and then by SKILL, they win or lose.
7. Classes must be PLENTIFUL but also SIMPLE and LIMITED in scope but POWERFUL enough to be hard to master.
8. Classes need sustainable abilities at level 1, (So more than 1 ability so they can survive and feel invited to the server)
9. Classes must have more than one role to play, a ninja could be stealthy AND high dmg, a Paladin can soak damage AND heal, beguilers can DMG and Crowd Control, etc.
10. Classes need to start with their gear even if basic and hotbars already on the bar.
11. Item system must be SIMPLE at start, with incremental (slight) increases with upgrades (Steel Sword +1 could give 1hp, the +5 vs could give 10hp)
12. There must be a high end other than mindess slaying (Castles, Township upgrades, better item upgrades, pvp arenas, PVE encounters, etc)

The specifics of cooldowns, damage, etc don't mean much to me and I truly leave that to the specialists (balance team). What means to me is the class lay out, each class is unqiue, feels like they have more than one role to play and is ENJOYABLE from START to FINISH.

For clarity, would this mean skills like Samurai's MortalWound, Murasame, and Kotesu as well as Wizard's Bolt, Mega Bolt and Arcane Blast need to be skill shots? This sounds exciting, but also very scary. In a game like Herocraft, skillshots that already exist are very wonky at best. As an example, Dark Bolt won't AoE unless it hits the ground and iirc it doesn't really do much if it connects with a player. On the other hand, skills like ice bolt and fireball are very easy to clip on allies or ambient blocks (Tall grass, flowers, etc).

Again, I'm excited to see a system like that work. I just think a change to how it would work is needed. Skill shots should pass through allies (Party Members) at least if not projectile based and they should pass through/temporarily destroy ambient blocks.

As for the rest of the post, I don't see anything wrong with it. We must keep classes in roles that make sense. IE: If Wizard is high single target and mobility, they shouldn't be getting AoE skills. On that note @Kainzo would you like the balance team to create a basic system of two roles, a primary and a secondary for each existing and up-coming class?

 

[Egorh]

For clarity, would this mean skills like Samurai's MortalWound, Murasame, and Kotesu as well as Wizard's Bolt, Mega Bolt and Arcane Blast need to be skill shots? This sounds exciting, but also very scary. In a game like Herocraft, skillshots that already exist are very wonky at best. As an example, Dark Bolt won't AoE unless it hits the ground and iirc it doesn't really do much if it connects with a player. On the other hand, skills like ice bolt and fireball are very easy to clip on allies or ambient blocks (Tall grass, flowers, etc).

Again, I'm excited to see a system like that work. I just think a change to how it would work is needed. Skill shots should pass through allies (Party Members) at least if not projectile based and they should pass through/temporarily destroy ambient blocks.

As for the rest of the post, I don't see anything wrong with it. We must keep classes in roles that make sense. IE: If Wizard is high single target and mobility, they shouldn't be getting AoE skills. On that note @Kainzo would you like the balance team to create a basic system of two roles, a primary and a secondary for each existing and up-coming class?

I don't think we should bother with a primary/secondary role system. Trying to follow through giving them proper things so they fit both roles as best as they can will probably limit ideas that make a great class. Of course when you do a class you always take into account what is that class' purpose and design around that but trying to separate every class into 1 primary and 1 secondary role does not seem very beneficial.

 

[Kainzo]

For clarity, would this mean skills like Samurai's MortalWound, Murasame, and Kotesu as well as Wizard's Bolt, Mega Bolt and Arcane Blast need to be skill shots? This sounds exciting, but also very scary. In a game like Herocraft, skillshots that already exist are very wonky at best. As an example, Dark Bolt won't AoE unless it hits the ground and iirc it doesn't really do much if it connects with a player. On the other hand, skills like ice bolt and fireball are very easy to clip on allies or ambient blocks (Tall grass, flowers, etc).

Again, I'm excited to see a system like that work. I just think a change to how it would work is needed. Skill shots should pass through allies (Party Members) at least if not projectile based and they should pass through/temporarily destroy ambient blocks.

As for the rest of the post, I don't see anything wrong with it. We must keep classes in roles that make sense. IE: If Wizard is high single target and mobility, they shouldn't be getting AoE skills. On that note @Kainzo would you like the balance team to create a basic system of two roles, a primary and a secondary for each existing and up-coming class?

Yes all those will be skill shots.

I don't think we should bother with a primary/secondary role system. Trying to follow through giving them proper things so they fit both roles as best as they can will probably limit ideas that make a great class. Of course when you do a class you always take into account what is that class' purpose and design around that but trying to separate every class into 1 primary and 1 secondary role does not seem very beneficial.

Primary and Secondary roles will come fluidly with GOOD design and skill allocation.
We just cant have a class that can ONLY do damage and absolutely nothing else. It will break these set of rules.

 

[PewPewPewLasers]

Yes all those will be skill shots.

Primary and Secondary roles will come fluidly with GOOD design and skill allocation.
We just cant have a class that can ONLY do damage and absolutely nothing else. It will break these set of rules.

I think right now what we're doing is giving the class a specific purpose, and having the means to achieve that purpose. For example, lets say we made beguiler a class to be a disrupting force in fights, we give it strong crowd control and utility as well as some damage. I think it's just a difference in terminology, for you and Egorh; he's saying a class should do X, and have tools Y and Z to get there, where as you're saying we need Y and Z which will in turn it will allow it X. I think you both have the same idea but just different perceptions of it

 

[victim130]

@Kainzo @Balance Team

I came up with a idea for Cleric, wanted to know if it was possible/desired.

First off, Shielding. I remember hearing that it was possible or at the very least was thought possible. Basic mechanic to shields would be that no one can have more than a quarter of their maximum health in shielding. (This could break the normal HP maximum). This HP would only be temporary and have a decay timer. After 10-15 seconds it would all disappear. This would not be able to be refreshed and need to be re-applied after its timer.

So with that mechanic, if even possible, I was thinking we make Cleric's Passive that a portion (Maybe 10-20%) of their healing applies as a shield. Their heals could maybe be combined with buffs, for instance their main heal could maybe also restore some mana or they could have another heal that grants a very short speed buff. The only real rule I had in mind for them was that they couldn't have any AoE heals. Give them a slight line holy magic attack that maybe has a slight knockback and doesn't do too much damage. Then, their ultimate skill could become a similar skill to the old Guardian Angel, but instead of the entire party being invulnerable, it freezes the shields that it has applied from decaying or dropping from any sort of damage. This would last around 5 seconds. Also, I think that it might be a stretch, but if we could somehow have a visual HUD aid for how many party members are shielded, that would make this that much more put together.

My idea is to make cleric a healer and a slight buffer with its only aoe capabilities being reliant on its passive. If this is possible, let me know what you think.

 

[Egorh]

@Kainzo @Balance Team

I came up with a idea for Cleric, wanted to know if it was possible/desired.

First off, Shielding. I remember hearing that it was possible or at the very least was thought possible. Basic mechanic to shields would be that no one can have more than a quarter of their maximum health in shielding. (This could break the normal HP maximum). This HP would only be temporary and have a decay timer. After 10-15 seconds it would all disappear. This would not be able to be refreshed and need to be re-applied after its timer.

So with that mechanic, if even possible, I was thinking we make Cleric's Passive that a portion (Maybe 10-20%) of their healing applies as a shield. Their heals could maybe be combined with buffs, for instance their main heal could maybe also restore some mana or they could have another heal that grants a very short speed buff. The only real rule I had in mind for them was that they couldn't have any AoE heals. Give them a slight line holy magic attack that maybe has a slight knockback and doesn't do too much damage. Then, their ultimate skill could become a similar skill to the old Guardian Angel, but instead of the entire party being invulnerable, it freezes the shields that it has applied from decaying or dropping from any sort of damage. This would last around 5 seconds. Also, I think that it might be a stretch, but if we could somehow have a visual HUD aid for how many party members are shielded, that would make this that much more put together.

My idea is to make cleric a healer and a slight buffer with its only aoe capabilities being reliant on its passive. If this is possible, let me know what you think.

Health shielding is definitely possible, even without absorption hearts. It is not that hard to take incoming damage and apply it to a different integer. You would obviously need a bunch of checks making sure any damage that goes beyond the shield is then applied to the health. I don't know Heroes API too well but Xexo said that it is definitely possible (and shouldn't be too hard) to work with absorption hearts. Being able to work with golden hearts, although not necessary, would make it so much better.

For a visual display to the cleric, there could possibly be glow effects (spectral arrows) only visible to the cleric. I think you can change the color of the glow effect by utilizing vanilla 'teams' but beyond that I don't know much about it

 

[PewPewPewLasers]

@Kainzo @Balance Team

I came up with a idea for Cleric, wanted to know if it was possible/desired.

First off, Shielding. I remember hearing that it was possible or at the very least was thought possible. Basic mechanic to shields would be that no one can have more than a quarter of their maximum health in shielding. (This could break the normal HP maximum). This HP would only be temporary and have a decay timer. After 10-15 seconds it would all disappear. This would not be able to be refreshed and need to be re-applied after its timer.

So with that mechanic, if even possible, I was thinking we make Cleric's Passive that a portion (Maybe 10-20%) of their healing applies as a shield. Their heals could maybe be combined with buffs, for instance their main heal could maybe also restore some mana or they could have another heal that grants a very short speed buff. The only real rule I had in mind for them was that they couldn't have any AoE heals. Give them a slight line holy magic attack that maybe has a slight knockback and doesn't do too much damage. Then, their ultimate skill could become a similar skill to the old Guardian Angel, but instead of the entire party being invulnerable, it freezes the shields that it has applied from decaying or dropping from any sort of damage. This would last around 5 seconds. Also, I think that it might be a stretch, but if we could somehow have a visual HUD aid for how many party members are shielded, that would make this that much more put together.

My idea is to make cleric a healer and a slight buffer with its only aoe capabilities being reliant on its passive. If this is possible, let me know what you think.

I like this a lot. I think right now healing in Herocraft has so much more potential than just target person and give health, and I think this is a great first step in a more unique style of supporting parties.

+1