Goal and Direction of the Class Revamp Patch

[Delfofthebla]

While this isn't necessarily a direct "balance" issue, I think that balance plays a role, and seeing as how this topic isn't being discussed anywhere but here, I'm going to try my luck and see what happens.

Kainzo if you'd like me to later move this to suggestions, or just feel like telling me to shut up and deal, let me know. I simply have some concerns that I think should be voiced here.

Anyways, here's what I'm seeing.

The Herocraft class situation is not a clear cut one. You have several classes that are lacking in terms of PVP viability, classes that are lacking in heir concepts, classes that are lacking in their playstyles, classes that could use a few simple tweaks, and classes that are in a good place and need no changes. Additionally, the leveling path for many classes is a bit sporadic / random, and it leads to the leveling process being too easy or too painful in comparison to other classes.

Overall, I think that Herocraft is in a good place, but introducing some large balance changes and revamps is a great idea that will serve to improve the quality of enjoyment for every individual player.

I have several concerns with the ever approaching update that will overhaul the classes and perform a level cap increase. Here's why:

1. The level cap is increasing, but nothing is being introduced to change or improve the leveling experience.

Level caps can be cool. In MMORPG's, they're often used to introduce new content. You're given new areas to explore, new monsters to kill, and new dungeons to fight through. Additionally, your class is able to receive new abilities as they progress towards the new leveling cap.​

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But here's the thing. leveling on Herocraft sucks. It's terrible. It isn't fun, there's nothing unique about it, and there aren't any systems in place to make it anything other than random mob grinding. I understand that the HeroBoss mod and Dungeons are being worked on, but it doesn't sound like these things are coming with this update. Right now, leveling a class is a chore, and it is largely is nothing more than random mob farming in the wilderness and camping spawn biomes.​

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Why are we forcing players who have already gone through this terrible experience to go through it again?​

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2. The level cap is increasing, but not every class is going to be getting new skills.

I agree that not every class needs to skills. Whether it be regarding the concept itself, or simply the balance of the class, not everyone needs changed. Even still, there has got to be nothing worse than being told "Yeah, you mastered, you've been enjoying your class, but we just increased the level cap, so you need to go do it some more. By the way, nothing else is different for your class."​

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I don't like this. Players are going to be upset. Hell, I'll be upset. I already mastered several classes, and I enjoy playing many of them. Some of them I enjoy more than others, some of them I'll never play again. But the fact of the matter is, I did master them. Everything that is the current version of the class I have "earned" through my own effort. I went through a grueling leveling process in order to obtain the complete version of my classes. If nothing is different for the class, how is it fair for me to have to level it again?​

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Now, if we're adding in new abilities to everyone, things are a little different. It becomes justified when the class is "more" than it was before. The idea of a level increase is to signify that your power is raising. If players do not feel like that is the case, then is there any real point?​

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3. The balance team is in a pretty rough state right now.

I know that I just joined the team recently, but it's very clear to me that the balance team is in a slump. There are very few members, and the few members that it does have aren't necessarily active in PVP. I mean no offensive by this, and I don't mean that any of you do not have a keen eye for balance, but the fact of the matter is, the team is lacking higher level experienced pvpers.​

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I find that this fact limits our ability to balance. It's very possible that this update will release, and Herocraft will be thrown into a massive state of imbalance, leading to frustrated players.​

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4. I worry that the update is being "falsely" advertised.

The server is expecting something cool, something great. When any game announces a level cap increase coupled with class revamps, they expect something big. Many Herocraft players are hoping for all of the class playability / balance issues to be sorted out, and that they'll have a whole new outlook on the Heroes classes. Is this really going to happen? Will the face of Herocraft really change, just like that?​

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Maybe it's because I'm not an upper level staff member, and if that's the case, maybe I'm worrying too much, but I feel as though I am completely in the dark as to how these class updates will be done. There's only two weeks until this update comes out, but we haven't even truly discussed what we will be doing. I've posted my feedback and laid out my thoughts, I'm coding away on the Runeblade skills, but I've hardly heard anything from any staff.​

I feel as though a level cap increase without attention being given to all classes is a bad idea. I feel as though the balance team is in a very poor state. I feel as though there is a lack of communication with the balance team.

Is now really a good time to push this revamp? Is a level cap increase actually necessary? Will we really pay attention to all classes that need it, or only a select few?

In the end, I'm questioning the update, and would like to gauge for thoughts.

 

[Kainzo]

It's not possible to easily 'change the face' of Herocraft.

I advertise this as a revamp of some classes, a level expansion and adding in new skills for the expansion..

I hope to re-arrange skills in several classes for better leveling experience.


The Runeblade revamp and possible Ranger revamp are the biggest revamps atm.

We have 35 skills unattended to add in for the 16 specs - not all of them need skills. I'm going to need to sit down and start going class by class and see how we can re-arrange and spread the skills better.

 

[iHazBryn]

While this isn't necessarily a direct "balance" issue, I think that balance plays a role, and seeing as how this topic isn't being discussed anywhere but here, I'm going to try my luck and see what happens.

Kainzo
1. The level cap is increasing, but nothing is being introduced to change or improve the leveling experience.

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2. The level cap is increasing, but not every class is going to be getting new skills.

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3. The balance team is in a pretty rough state right now.

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4. I worry that the update is being "falsely" advertised.

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I feel as though a level cap increase without attention being given to all classes is a bad idea. I feel as though the balance team is in a very poor state. I feel as though there is a lack of communication with the balance team.

Is now really a good time to push this revamp? Is a level cap increase actually necessary? Will we really pay attention to all classes that need it, or only a select few?

In the end, I'm questioning the update, and would like to gauge for thoughts.

Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Yes I agree, leveling is a pain in the ass, but as a part of a system that is based around rewarding someone for effort, it is an inevitability. Yes leveling does need to be tweaked a bit, and yes there do need to be things done to spice up the experience, but that is not really a job for the balance team. Leveling will always be here. At times it has been retardedly hard, like in early zeal, and at times it has been a 6 hour task to cap out. (ie Mob arenas.)

Yes it is hard to find a balance between fun/skill/reward when it comes to leveling, but I don't think that is something to be worried about in this update.

2. I do agree with this point, if your going to be releasing an update, everyone should be receiving some sort of skill, or revamp.

3. I just was accepted last week so I don't really know much about this, but I'll throw some things out there.

-The balance team IS currently being rebuilt, at least this is what it appears like to me.
-I myself have been a extremely active pvper since sanctum (I had over 400 kills last map and got the first 100 kill streak), but this map I am out of the loop. Give me a few weeks to catch up, and I will be able to help with this.

4. I don't think you have to worry too much, 90% of the community is very understanding, and will be completly understanding when it comes to the update. As long as everyone gets a new skill, or an old skill revamped, people will be ecstatic.

Balance after updates is always a bit shaky and this is to be expected. People will bare with us as we sort through things that need changes. Remeber when the cap was raised to (55?) and firewave one shot everything? Yea, it was sorted out, and everyone ended up with a big ol' smile on their face.


Kainzo
Maybe with this patch being released it would be an idea to add in a "Balance Reports" forum, simalar to the exploit report forum. I realize that 80% of this would be "BLAH BLAH IS OVERPOWERED", but maybe some of it would be of some use to us. Sorting through the spam would be bothersome, but we may be able to pick out trends, and well worded responses.

I think that one of the main problems the balance team has is that we don't have resources available to us, other than our own experience.

You could even have a form to fill out, something like:

Class you find unbalanced?:
Skills you have a problem with?:
Reason you find these unfair?:

Abuse of this forum would be punishable, and I don't think it should be viewable to the public for it would just cause flame wars and people repeating themselves.

EDIT:

Just thought of another idea. I don't know if this is something that has been thrown around in the past, but what is the thought of an in-game [Balance] title.

This would give people ingame someone to talk to about any issues they might have, both helping players learn, and helping us gather info.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Yes I agree, leveling is a pain in the ass, but as a part of a system that is based around rewarding someone for effort, it is an inevitability. Yes leveling does need to be tweaked a bit, and yes there do need to be things done to spice up the experience, but that is not really a job for the balance team. Leveling will always be here. At times it has been retardedly hard, like in early zeal, and at times it has been a 6 hour task to cap out. (ie Mob arenas.)

Yes it is hard to find a balance between fun/skill/reward when it comes to leveling, but I don't think that is something to be worried about in this update.

I have no issues with a "leveling system", I just think it's a tad silly that there is a system in place when there is no real content to "experience" it on, if you know what I mean.

I do think it is something to be worried about in this update though. You need content for a level cap increase. It could be new areas to explore, new mechanics to experience, new monsters to fight, and finally, new skills to use. In the end, it won't be that big of a deal, but level cap increases have major impacts on balance, and they also serve no real purpose without content to spend it on. Leveling is supposed to be an experience, not a chore. If this update releases with no content to spend it on, it will be a chore. Sure, new skills will be cool, but not every class is going to get that luxury, and that is where my issue lies.

Because of this, I think that while a new skill isn't necessarily "needed" for every class, it might be a good idea to still create them. If we can't add new leveling systems for PVE, we should spend attention on things that we are already working on. You could do something similar to how Kainzo is changing Dreadknight. Remove one skill, add one or two more in. "Mix it up" for the classes.

This would change things for the classes and their playstyles, and create a fun experience for all players, regardless of what their class is.

3. I just was accepted last week so I don't really know much about this, but I'll throw some things out there.

-The balance team IS currently being rebuilt, at least this is what it appears like to me.
-I myself have been a extremely active pvper since sanctum (I had over 400 kills last map and got the first 100 kill streak), but this map I am out of the loop. Give me a few weeks to catch up, and I will be able to help with this.

And glad to have you. I too am under the impression that it is being rebuilt. It's just that while we're lazing around and getting settled in, the clock is still ticking away.

4. I don't think you have to worry too much, 90% of the community is very understanding, and will be completly understanding when it comes to the update. As long as everyone gets a new skill, or an old skill revamped, people will be ecstatic.

I'm not so sure they're as understanding as you think they are. The people I talk to certainly aren't.

Balance after updates is always a bit shaky and this is to be expected. People will bare with us as we sort through things that need changes. Remeber when the cap was raised to (55?) and firewave one shot everything? Yea, it was sorted out, and everyone ended up with a big ol' smile on their face.

It wasn't sorted out until like two months ago. >.>

Kainzo
Maybe with this patch being released it would be an idea to add in a "Balance Reports" forum, simalar to the exploit report forum. I realize that 80% of this would be "BLAH BLAH IS OVERPOWERED", but maybe some of it would be of some use to us. Sorting through the spam would be bothersome, but we may be able to pick out trends, and well worded responses.

I think that one of the main problems the balance team has is that we don't have resources available to us, other than our own experience.

You could even have a form to fill out, something like:

Class you find unbalanced?:
Skills you have a problem with?:
Reason you find these unfair?:

Abuse of this forum would be punishable, and I don't think it should be viewable to the public for it would just cause flame wars and people repeating themselves.

I like this idea.