Forum List re-arranging...

[Kainzo]

How would you re-arrange our current forums for better readability and efficiency?

I'm looking at merging several topics/forums together to make for a better/easier use. Showing the most traveled areas first (or not?)

Wanted to see what you guys thought.

1. PUBLIC
   1. Announcements
      1. Rules
      2. Guides
      3. Site Related
      4. Leave / Absence
      
      
   2. General
      
   3. Off Topic
      
   4. Appeals
      
   5. Supporter Area
      
   6. Single Player Discussion
      
   7. Applications
      1. Proctor|Guide|Mod
      2. Lore|Architect
      3. Coder|Herald|Designer|Balance
2. RPG
   FOR THOSE WHO ARE WHITELISTED AND PLAYING ON HEROCRAFT RPG!
   1. Patches
      
      
   2. Member Discussion
      1. Introductions
      2. Screenshots
      3. Artwork
      4. Lore
      5. Roleplay
      
      
   3. Trade
      1. Bastion - Graveyard
      
      
   4. Townships
      1. Township Planning
      2. Guilds
      3. Diplomacy
      4. The Graveyard
      
      
   5. Bug Reporting
      
   6. Suggestions
      
   7. Exploit Reporting
3. CREATIVE
   1. General
      
   2. Build Projects
      
   3. Applications
      
   4. Appeals
4. HEROGAMES
   THE HEROGAMES!
   1. General
      
   2. Appeals
      
   3. Bug Reporting
5. HEXXIT
   
   THE HEXXIT FORUMS!
   

   1. General
      
   2. Applications
      
   3. Bugs
      
   4. Appeals
      
   5. Towns
6. OTHER GAMES
   1. General Games
      
   2. League of Legends
      
   3. Battlefield 3
      
   4. Path of Exile
      
   5. Guild Wars 2

New?

• PUBLIC
  1. Announcements
     1. Rules
     2. Guides
     3. Site Related
     4. Leave / Absence
     
     
  2. General
     
  3. Off Topic
     
  4. Appeals
     
  5. Supporter Area
     
  6. Single Player Discussion
     
  7. Applications
     1. Proctor|Guide|Mod
     2. Lore|Architect
     3. Coder|Herald|Designer|Balance

• RPG
  FOR THOSE WHO ARE WHITELISTED AND PLAYING ON HEROCRAFT RPG!
  1. Patches
     
     
  2. Member Discussion
     1. Introductions
     2. Screenshots
     3. Artwork
     4. Lore
     5. Roleplay
     
     
  3. Trade
     1. Bastion - Graveyard
     
     
  4. Townships
     1. Township Planning
     2. Guilds
     3. Diplomacy
     4. The Graveyard
     
     
  5. Bug Reporting
     
  6. Suggestions
     
  7. Exploit Reporting

• CREATIVE
  1. General
     
  2. Build Projects
     
  3. Applications
     
  4. Appeals

• HEROGAMES
  THE HEROGAMES!
  1. General
     
  2. Appeals
     
  3. Bug Reporting

• HEXXIT
  
  THE HEXXIT FORUMS!
  

  1. General
     
  2. Applications
     
  3. Bugs
     
  4. Appeals
     
  5. Towns

• OTHER GAMES
  1. General Games
     
  2. League of Legends
     
  3. Battlefield 3
     
  4. Path of Exile
     
  5. Guild Wars 2

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

Could the wiki get a subform of its own, please?

I really don't think anyone identifies Public/ Site Related as the place to post threads about the wiki - in fact no one does. There hasn't been a new thread about wiki matters under Site Related by anyone not actually working on the wiki for 10 months. Edited: Actually that person was working on the wiki, and I think that thread was from before the forums got rearranged into their current form.

The last two threads about wiki content have been in Bug Reporting (which might be ok) and General.

As people rarely think to tag me, I'm afraid it's pretty random whether or not I find wiki-related threads. Not saying having a wiki area would fix this, but it might help.

Thanks.

 

[ZeZeene]

Here are some quick thoughts, nothing revolutionary, but mostly in the spirit of a general cleanup:

• Public
  • Announcements/Rules -> Any actual rules listed in here should just be a sticky in Announcements, move the rest of the threads appropiately.
  • Announcements/Guides -> Most threads in here saw their last post in 2012. Practically the same as the above, move contents to their corresponding subforums and sticky when appropiate.
  • Announcements/Site Related -> The focus of Herocraft is not on the website. This could be Announcements/Development instead, with thread prefixes to distinguish between site and in-game related matters, which would also clean up Announcements itself a bit.
  • Applications/* -> This really should be a forum containing an application queue instead, with two subforums, respectively for Approved (Applications/Approved) and Denied (Applications/Denied) applications. A third subforum will mirror the exact same setup, but then for Staff applications (position applying for will be selectable as a thread prefix)
• RPG
  • Member Discussion/Introductions -> Move this to the Public tab, position equivalent to the 'Leave / Absence'-subforum.
  • Member Discussion/Roleplay -> Relatively inactive. Turn Member Discussion/Roleplay/OOC Discussion (containing just two threads) into a prefix instead, and merge the entire subforum with Member Discussion/Lore.
  • Member Discussion/Artwork -> Also relatively inactive, but a merger with Member Discussion/Screenshots would discredit the actual art. Requires further consideration.
  • Townships/Diplomacy -> Contains only one thread. By @Kainzo. From 2012. Get rid of it. Seriously.
• Hexxit
  • Applications -> Hexx.it no longer has a whitelist. Get rid of this, but archive it in a private (invisible) subforum if neccessary.
  • Towns -> Hexx.it has no towns. End of story.

Note: Creative, HeroGames and Hexxit are each too small to claim their own tab. These should be merged if possible, though I do have a few other options in mind that we shall discuss in the upcoming Design Meeting with @Xanipher, @Kainzo and myself. However, this merger should be easily reversible as long as you do not combine the individual subforums and is advised as long as long as this initial rearrangement does not extend beyond a much-needed cleanup.

 

[LightningCape]

Townships/Diplomacy -> Contains only one thread. By @Kainzo. From 2012. Get rid of it. Seriously..

This was cleared for the new map. It is used a lot when major towns have huge fights. They like putting videos there. When towns are more grounded this will fill up.

Applications/* -> This really should be a forum containing an application queue instead, with two subforums, respectively for Approved (Applications/Approved) and Denied (Applications/Denied) applications.

Kinda unnecessary imo. Locking and deleting applications works fine for denying. We can label each on with a prefix if we wanted to but locking is faster.

A third subforum will mirror the exact same setup, but then for Staff applications (position applying for will be selectable as a thread prefix).

Agree

 

[ZeZeene]

This was cleared for the new map. It is used a lot when major towns have huge fights. They like putting videos there. When towns are more grounded this will fill up.

Hmm, okay. Guess it can stay, then.

Kinda unnecessary imo. Locking and deleting applications works fine for denying. We can label each on with a prefix if we wanted to but locking is faster.

Agree

At first I wrote that part with Staff-applications in mind and Whitelist-applications were hastily edited in last-minute, which I guess was rather noticeable. Just keep the Whitelist-applications as they are right now, but replace all of the Staff-application-subforums with a per-position prefix and Approved/Denied subforums. People having to bump their posts in order to grab our attention again should not be necessary, that's what queues are for.

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

Some more considered thoughts from me...

Rationale/Objectives:

• Put information/threads where readers expect to find them - and thus CAN find them.
• Minimize keystrokes needed to access the most commonly used threads.
• Group similar content together.

Thoughts about present layout:

• If you actually want people to use the subforums then get rid of the General subforum, because all manner of suggestions, questions, announcements and off-topic threads are just being dumped in there. Gee @Kainzo, you've even put this thread under General, instead of ... ?Site-related?
• The RPG server is the heart of the Herocraft Community (any dispute on this?) and the layout needs to serve this part of the community's needs most.
• A lot of stuff relating exclusively to the RPG server is on the Public page instead of where it logically belongs.
• The Rules should be in just one place so they can be maintained more reliably. I vote for the Wiki, with a link (many links, thousands of links) to the Wiki Rules pages from the Forums.

@ZeZeene, I hear you that you're just looking to rearrange and tidy atm - and yay on this, seriously. So I've stuck with current forums as much as possible in this structure. But in some places this arrangement of subforums is lacking. I've also incorporated your suggestions.

So in answer to your opening post, @Kainzo what I think is that a number of subforums are still not logically organized such that players will find what they want where they expect it to be.

Suggested arrangement follows. I can see probs with it but also a number of strengths. I look forward to suggestions for improving it.

And if you want a hand at some stage with allocating the threads in the General subforum to appropriate forums, perhaps I could help.

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

Refer previous post for disclaimers

PUBLIC

• Announcements (HCO announcements, not RPG announcements, and no subforums – they’ve all been moved elsewhere, except a sticky for accessing the Rules)
• Whitelist Applications
• Off Topic (or could move to Members)
• Single Player Discussion
• Appeals

MEMBERS

• Introductions (includes Show us your face Thread, stickied)
• Supporter Area
• Staff applications
  • Proctor
  • Guide
  • Mod
  • Lore
  • Architect
  • Coder
  • Herald
  • Designer
  • Balance
• Interests
  • Screenshots
  • Artwork
  • Lore
  • Roleplay
• Leave / Absence

RPG – SERVER-SIDE

• Announcements
  • Patches, Dev Diary etc, HeroModPack
  • Events
• Bug Reporting
• Suggestions
• Questions / Discussion (New forum)
• Wiki / Guides (New/combined forum)
• Exploit Reporting

RPG – PLAYER-SIDE

• Townships
  • Township Planning
  • Diplomacy
  • The Graveyard
• Guilds
• Trade

OTHER HEROCRAFT ONLINE SERVERS
(name is too long for a tab, dunno)

• Creative
  • Announcements (new)
  • Applications
  • Bug Reporting
  • Discussion
  • Appeals
• Hexxit
  • Bug Reporting
  • Discussion
  • Appeals
• HeroGames

• • Bug Reporting
  • Discussion

OTHER GAMES

• General Games
• League of Legends
• Battlefield 3
• Path of Exile
• Guild Wars 2

 

[Angyles]

As someone who handles the applications multiple times a day, the set up we have now is perfectly fine. People have to bump things so we are aware, as the apps are handled by one proctor unless Cake or I step in and ask someone to take over.

None of the proctors can move applications, and I do not think that is something you really want them to have the perms for, so unless it is automatically done I disagree with it.

 

[ZeZeene]

Some more considered thoughts from me...
@ZeZeene, I hear you that you're just looking to rearrange and tidy atm - and yay on this, seriously.

Actually, that was just my objective in that single post. I am still discussing ways to properly handle forums for Herocraft and it's sister-projects with optimal technological- and cost-efficiency, which is a rather tricky when you consider that licensing alone would cost us $140 per year per forum, excluding VAT.
Cleaning up is more of a short-term objective and something we're going to have to do anyway.

As someone who handles the applications multiple times a day, the set up we have now is perfectly fine. People have to bump things so we are aware, as the apps are handled by one proctor unless Cake or I step in and ask someone to take over.

None of the proctors can move applications, and I do not think that is something you really want them to have the perms for, so unless it is automatically done I disagree with it.

You do have a point there: XenForo currently has no way to restrict people in where they can move threads to.
While it still would be nice to have a functional queue instead of the giantic mess of posts the Applications subforum is now, here are a couple of alternatives I'd like your opinion on:

• Allowing Proctos to "soft-delete" threads, which does not delete them from the database but rather hides them from public view. Cons: people have no way to view their own application when it has been handled.
• Allowing Proctors to lock threads, combined with a style change to make locked threads appear less prominent or faded out, plus another configuration change to ensure handled applications appear below unhandled applications. Pros: It looks a lot neater and tidier, albeit less so than the option listed above. Lock/Unlock permissions can easily be restricted to that subforum only, so it does not open any major holes in security.

 

[Angyles]

You do have a point there: XenForo currently has no way to restrict people in where they can move threads to.
While it still would be nice to have a functional queue instead of the giantic mess of posts the Applications subforum is now, here are a couple of alternatives I'd like your opinion on:

• Allowing Proctos to "soft-delete" threads, which does not delete them from the database but rather hides them from public view. Cons: people have no way to view their own application when it has been handled.
• Allowing Proctors to lock threads, combined with a style change to make locked threads appear less prominent or faded out, plus another configuration change to ensure handled applications appear below unhandled applications. Pros: It looks a lot neater and tidier, albeit less so than the option listed above. Lock/Unlock permissions can easily be restricted to that subforum only, so it does not open any major holes in security.

I disagree with soft delete as if an application is denied and they soft delete it, future proctors will not be able to view why it was deleted. In addition as you stated the member would not be able to view it either.

We can change the view of the applications now, so not sure how anything would change. I sort the entire page by numbers of replies in ascending order and it shows me all the threads that have not been responded to by a proctor.

I suggested locking the threads when they were accepted and was told no.

We do have a thread prefix that can be added but only Mods and the Sproctor can access it. We cannot give it to all the proctors as it opens them up to accessing more things then we want them to have. If the proctors could have access to the prefix only, and not be able to delete anything or move anything, I think it would solve the issue.

We have been doing it the same way since I came on board over a year and a half ago and have never had any issues.

 

[ZeZeene]

I disagree with soft delete as if an application is denied and they soft delete it, future proctors will not be able to view why it was deleted. In addition as you stated the member would not be able to view it either.

We can change the view of the applications now, so not sure how anything would change. I sort the entire page by numbers of replies in ascending order and it shows me all the threads that have not been responded to by a proctor.

I suggested locking the threads when they were accepted and was told no.

Who told you what is completely irrelevant right now. As long as they do not provide valid reasoning to support their decision, it should not even be considered.
Also, it is entirely possible to change the default post order. It can simply be set to display all threads ascendingly based on the total number of replies, without requiring the viewer to manually configure it that way.

We do have a thread prefix that can be added but only Mods and the Sproctor can access it. We cannot give it to all the proctors as it opens them up to accessing more things then we want them to have. If the proctors could have access to the prefix only, and not be able to delete anything or move anything, I think it would solve the issue.

Wait, who told you that? Because it is completely, utterly and obviously not the truth. Per individual prefix you can control who can use it and where they can use it. This would literally take less than twenty seconds and ten clicks of the mouse to configure.

 

[WitchOnaRampage]

To clarify, when I refer to the wiki in this thread, I don't mean the wiki itself but rather discussion threads - such as a change log, requests for clarification or new topics to be covered etc.

 

[Angyles]

Who told you what is completely irrelevant right now. As long as they do not provide valid reasoning to support their decision, it should not even be considered.
Also, it is entirely possible to change the default post order. It can simply be set to display all threads ascendingly based on the total number of replies, without requiring the viewer to manually configure it that way.


Wait, who told you that? Because it is completely, utterly and obviously not the truth. Per individual prefix you can control who can use it and where they can use it. This would literally take less than twenty seconds and ten clicks of the mouse to configure.

Originally I was told by the Admins not to lock threads and no offence but I take what they say a little more seriously then what you tell me, as they are in charge. Kainzo does not have to give a valid reason for anything, his server, his forums if he says do not lock them we will not lock them.

Perhaps now there is a fix in to fix things properly but in the past we could NOT give just prefix to proctors in the forum as it would grant them access to things they should not have,

A concern I have is people coming in and changing things without actually speaking to the people who handle the applications to see what works and what does not.

 

[ZeZeene]

Perhaps now there is a fix in to fix things properly but in the past we could NOT give just prefix to proctors in the forum as it would grant them access to things they should not have,

Please do keep in mind Kainzo, whether he is the owner of the server or not, was the one who claimed he could chmod through the SCP command.
And sorry to disappoint you, but as long as thread prefixes have been in XenForo, they were as fully configurable as their are now.

 

[Angyles]

Please do keep in mind Kainzo, whether he is the owner of the server or not, was the one who claimed he could chmod through the SCP command.
And sorry to disappoint you, but as long as thread prefixes have been in XenForo, they were as fully configurable as their are now.

It is not disappointing me, I can only go by what I am told by the Admins. I might have access to the Admin control panel for age changes, name changes and staff promotion, I do not have access to the actual board so I do not know what is allowed there and what is not.

Danda himself has tried to fix it and it did not work as intended in the application forum as it could not just be granted to the proctors they would have been given more perms then needed.

A concern I have is people coming in and changing things without actually speaking to the people who handle the applications to see what works and what does not.

 

[ZeZeene]

A concern I have is people coming in and changing things without actually speaking to the people who handle the applications to see what works and what does not.

Considering the rather special nature of the Whitelist-applications subforum, it's fairly safe to say that you have more experience in knowing how to handle it than I do and ultimately my goal is to make things better for everyone, not worse.

So, provided the past permissions issue are no longer relevant or we are able to work around those, would the prefixes for all Proctors plus your preferred sorting being the default in that particular subforum be a viable option?

 

[Angyles]

Considering the rather special nature of the Whitelist-applications subforum, it's fairly safe to say that you have more experience in knowing how to handle it than I do and ultimately my goal is to make things better for everyone, not worse.

So, provided the past permissions issue are no longer relevant or we are able to work around those, would the prefixes for all Proctors plus your preferred sorting being the default in that particular subforum be a viable option?

I think having the added prefix provided they cannot do anything besides add the prefix is fine. I would not want it to automatically sort for everyone by number of replies as sometimes people will post an application and then respond right away as opposed to editing it. That will show a reply and it would be buried behind all of the 0 replied locked applications we have.

 

[ZeZeene]

I think having the added prefix provided they cannot do anything besides add the prefix is fine. I would not want it to automatically sort for everyone by number of replies as sometimes people will post an application and then respond right away as opposed to editing it. That will show a reply and it would be buried behind all of the 0 replied locked applications we have.

Alright then.
It's also possible to force a default prefix in a specified subforum, so if all new threads were to be created with, let's say, 'Open' as their initial prefix which Proctors can change to 'Closed' when the application has been handled, it'd be easy to see all open or all closed applications by simply clicking the prefix you intend to filter on. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

 

[Angyles]

Alright then.
It's also possible to force a default prefix in a specified subforum, so if all new threads were to be created with, let's say, 'Open' as their initial prefix which Proctors can change to 'Closed' when the application has been handled, it'd be easy to see all open or all closed applications by simply clicking the prefix you intend to filter on. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

I think having the prefix as it is now "Accepted" or "Denied" is enough. I do not want the default sorting to be changed though.