Suggestion Disciple's Base Equipment Weight

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

Disciple's base equipment weight is the lowest of any class in the game at 18.75. Let that one sink in for a second.
It's Endurance is set at -5 and if you wish to be able to wear full leather armor you'll need to put a whopping 27 points into Endurance to get the number up at 22. This will get your Equipment Weight up to 35.25 in order to get back to the squishy leather wearing Disciple everyone knew and loved back in Bastion.

I won't ignore the obvious; Disciples need Endurance anyway for stamina regeneration since most of their skills require stamina, mana, or a combination of both. A Disciple is going to put points into Endurance either way, but the amount of points required to "get back to normal" seems a bit high.

For a melee class, it seems a bit silly to see such a low number. I'm not certain if the wiki is accurate, but as a comparison a Ninja's base equipment weight is a whopping 30. A ninja will most certainly need to put points into Endurance for stamina regen, but it'll cost them very little to get to the full leather + chain helmet stage they were in previously. Hell, they're only 5 shy from full leather from the getgo.

All in all, seems weird, and I'm feeling the hurt

 

[Dakinara]

Yeah, the last update to equipment weights "appeared" to correct equipment weight for most classes in order to make getting to previous armor levels a relatively similar effort in terms of endurance cost compared to where they were on last map. Except for a few including disciple - they got a big nerf, starting equipment weight quite a bit below other pure leather wearers from last map.

Other pure leather wearers from last map with new base equip weight - bloodmage (26.25), wizard (26.25), beguiler (26.25), necromancer (30?!?!? - clearly OP). Druid and runeblade have lower relative base armor rating now compared to last map, while pyro is higher slightly.

i dunno what the basis for any of these numbers are, only the balance team knows. IT is a black box.

 

[Jasquan]

I agree with you, but there is no >real< suggestion here, Also, Dakinara, could you please just edit your post instead of posting like 5 times in a row?

 

[Jack_Reacher]

Well - isn't the Disciple supposed to be the "Naked Warrior" - speaking purely lore-wise. It seems fitting that they should be wearing less armor.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

Well - isn't the Disciple supposed to be the "Naked Warrior" - speaking purely lore-wise. It seems fitting that they should be wearing less armor.

Yeh, that way I can get 3 shot by a backstabbing ninja instead of 5 shot. Being a naked warrior does fit with the lore, but that simply doesn't work well on Minecraft. Everyone needs at least full leather, especially a class that is only effective in melee range. I'm not saying a Disciple isn't able to achieve this, rather it costs too much to get to that point.

Since Disciple is a Hybrid melee class that uses both Stamina and Mana, and have skills that scale off of Intellect, Strength, Wisdom, and Agility, their plate is full. The only stat a Disciple can ignore without any downside is Charisma. Since I have to get my Endurance at such a high number to be able to wear full leather I'm neglecting other areas. Perhaps I have a poor build, but If memory serves me correctly as I don't have a computer in front of me Endurance is my 2nd highest stat, and not by much. Seems silly.

 

[Keache]

Adding my thoughts in a bit. Basically, nerf was much needed, armor disc op as fuck.

 

[Jack_Reacher]

Hmm - yea - I guess it seems strange for the Disciple to have such a low starting Endurance and Armor Carrying Capacity, but I have not taken a lot of time looking at the overall balance of the class. I think Keache may be on to something - armored Disciple is something to be feared... and perhaps it borders on OP. I think Keache played Disciple a lot last map too (of course I know you did, STDs).

Furthermore - and no, I have not done thorough research on this - I thought that each class's starting attribs are "balanced". That is - when the base attribs were being created, each class started with 0 for all attribs, and a fixed amount of allocation points were used on each class to modify the base point attribs from zero. What I'm saying is - I think what you lost in base Endurance, you may have gained in the base of other skills. You will want to have a higher Endurance, so you should be putting a lot of points into that anyway. That said, base Armor Carrying Capacity seems to be independent of that.

 

[Keache]

Okay, so here's the deal. STD's: on paper, your arguments are valid and it makes a lot of sense, why revert back to the squishy Disciple that it used to be on Dragon? Thing is though, that even without armor Disciples are much less "squishy" than they used to be, regardless of armor.

While I was running around as a pre-nerf Disciple, I went high constitution and low armor, because I loved the whole "armorless monk/warrior" vibe, and being a caster killer was pretty fun. To counterbalance my squishiness, I went pretty high wisdom too, so I could hopefully keep my health up in the same way that an armor disciple would with damage mitigation. What I didn't realize though is that at the time, armor disciple had to sacrifice extremely little for the kind of armor that it got in terms of constitution, wisdom and intellect. I noticed this when I saw Truecorruptor running around in Iron helmet, leather body and legs, and iron boots. He was able to tank tremendous amount of melee. Yes, caster did counter him to some degree, but Disciples have always been caster killers, so that was a little counter intuitive.

So, before I immediately said "woah, that's op" I decided to take it to the test server. I asked my buddy Draconis to hop on and fight me as the paladin that he usually is. First fight that I was going to test was my usual build of 30/35 (forget) const, 25 int 25 wis (and a few pts into endurance for stamina and a few pts into agility). He killed me with four of his hearts left. That's fine. I figured that he should be able to one v one me, because I do a lot of physical damage and I am more focused on supporting allies with chakra, fists of jin and balance.

*He did not use layhands in either of these test fights*

The second build I went was more balanced. I was able to maintain 25 intellect for the push and pull, had to drop wisdom down only three points, dropped constitution down by 10 points, which only dropped my health by 100 and magic resist by something negligible, and had however much endurance it took to give me 35 armor points. I asked Draconis to fight me again, and the results were rediculous. I killed him with only half a heart gone. Paladins deal very little damage physically, but even so the differences between the two results were staggering. He killed me relatively easily the first time, then I killed him with no difficulty at all.

All of that data compounded by the fact that I watched Mr. Armor Disciple Truecorruptor tank about four players before finally being taken down led me to believe that an armor nerf was seriously in order. It is nice for disciples to have armor, they are a melee class after all, but when you start giving them more than full leather or the defense equivalent of that, their damage mitigation and constant healing gets far too out of control, especially for what little they were sacrificing to achieve that.

TLDR; yeah, armor disciple op as fuck

 

[Keache]

@Dakinara Holy fuck, just edit your goddamned post. There's no need for you to spam this thing repeatedly with sarcastic, unproductive and annoying comments.

 

[Dakinara]

Lol i was editing the post but it came out as spam, so sorry . I am not gonna comment from a pure balance standpoint, but once custom items are out in full force, I am assuming people who dont wear full armor / weapon will be relatively gimpy due to the attribute and other bonuses you could potentially gain from equiping them. Therefore, if armor ratings are going to stay as is, there should at least be craftable armor items classified as "cloth" that have no armor protection but will still allow you to wear statistic bonuses in those inventory slots.

also, i still dont see a way to delete my own posts? IF any mods can delete them that is fine by me, didnt mean to clutter up thread @Angyles @Danda ?

 

[Angyles]

I merged your posts in a row so you can edit out what you wish to

 

[Taranwandering]

I really want to spec disciple, but the lack of armor is too scary for me admittedly. The disciple really looks like it requires too many attributes at the moment, but this is just my noobish opinion.

I'm not sure how a disciple with armor is scarier than say a wizard or ninja with armor-- ninjas also have more base hp than paladins, btw.

Because disciple heals, armor impacts its stats more than most other classes, but I'm not sure that it should be the lowest... The damage it deals with fists is also lower than many other classes with their weapons. The monk needs a blaze rod (expensive!) to compete, it looks like.

 

[Egorh]

This equipment weight nerf only brought me down 5. Although that is very annoying (I need to wear damn leather legs with my gold now... )I can still where decent armor. You should also know that I pretty much always where Prot 4 armor making my endurance even more useful, and I do get punished for having so much endurance from Hamburguilers...too many beguilers...

 

[Keache]

Hamburguilers*

 

[Keache]

I really want to spec disciple, but the lack of armor is too scary for me admittedly. The disciple really looks like it requires too many attributes at the moment, but this is just my noobish opinion.

I'm not sure how a disciple with armor is scarier than say a wizard or ninja with armor-- ninjas also have more base hp than paladins, btw.

Because disciple heals, armor impacts its stats more than most other classes, but I'm not sure that it should be the lowest... The damage it deals with fists is also lower than many other classes with their weapons. The monk needs a blaze rod (expensive!) to compete, it looks like.

I disagree that you need a blaze rod in order to compete, though with the current system that lets you keep what you're holding on death, that arguably makes disciple overpowered. I can also say that a disciple needs a blaze rod to compete in the same way that any orher class uses a gold weapon.

I'd also like to point out that while disciple has the lowest armor, I believe it has the highest base health. And ninja may have a larger base health than paladin, but paladin can wear full diamond armor.

 

[Egorh]

Hamburguilers*

Fixed it

 

[crazydodapie]

I disagree that you need a blaze rod in order to compete, though with the current system that lets you keep what you're holding on death, that arguably makes disciple overpowered. I can also say that a disciple needs a blaze rod to compete in the same way that any orher class uses a gold weapon.

I'd also like to point out that while disciple has the lowest armor, I believe it has the highest base health. And ninja may have a larger base health than paladin, but paladin can wear full diamond armor.

if paladin can wear full dia armor, thats 80% reduction. plus shield with iron door, 20% reduction. paladin can go invincible?

 

[Delfofthebla]

if paladin can wear full dia armor, thats 80% reduction. plus shield with iron door, 20% reduction. paladin can go invincible?

A paladin can never wear full diamond armor.

 

[Keache]

A paladin can never wear full diamond armor.

My bad

 

[Keache]

if paladin can wear full dia armor, thats 80% reduction. plus shield with iron door, 20% reduction. paladin can go invincible?

Even if that WAS the case, it would be multiplicatively, or, rather, damage would be reduced by 80%, then that resulting value would be reduced by 20%, if I'm not mistaken.