Disciple Stuff

[Egorh]

This is my long ass post on Disciple that took me a while to make because I collected most of Disciple's numbers for scaling and stuff.

TL;DR-Too bad, read it!

Disciple's Base Stats
Strength: 3
Constitution: 4, 905 HP, 1.2% magic resist-1 constitution point gives the user 7 more HP and 0.3% more magic resist
Endurance: -5, 15 armor weight, 35 stamina regen-1 endurance point gives the user 0.75 more armor weight and 1 stam regen
Agility: 2, 100.75% movement speed-1 agility point gives the person 0.38% more movement speed
Intellect: 5, 845 mana-1 intellect point gives the user 5 more mana
Wisdom: 3, 23 mana regen-1 wisdom point gives the user 1 more mana regen
Charisma: 0

With 3 strength the weapon damages

• Fist-36.05-1 point of strength adds 0.35 damage
• Stick-38.35-1 point of strength adds 0.35 damage
• Fish-49.5-1 point of strength adds 0.35 damage
• Blazerod-52.15-1 point of strength 0.35 damage

Skills that scale off of strength

• Forcepush-strength increases damage dealt-1 strength point adds 1 more damage
• Forcepull-strength increases damage dealt-1 strength point adds 0.5 more damage
• Flyingkick-strength increases damage dealt-1 strength point adds 1.12 more damage
• Ironfist-strength increases damage dealt-1 strength point adds 1.5 more damage
• Quiveringpalm-strength increases damage dealt-1 strength point adds 1.5 more damage

Skills that scale off of intellect

• Forcepush-intellect increases the power of the push (the distance they go)
• Forcepull-intellect increases the range you can target the entity from
• Smite-intellect increases the damage dealt-1 intellect point adds 1.25 more damage
• Meditate-intellect increases your mana pool, therefore meditate scales off of it

Skills that scale off of wisdom

• FistofJin-wisdom increases the healing-1 wisdom point increases the healing for 0.2
• Chakra-wisdom increases the healing-1 wisdom point increases the group healing for 1 and the user's healing for 0.7
• Renewal-wisdom increases the healing-1 wisdom point increases a heal on an ally by 1.88 and the when used on the user it scales by 1.31

Skills that scale off of agility

• Flyingkick-agility increases the targeting range

Ironfist

• Costs 100 mana
• 23s CD
• Knocks people slightly back and gives them slow 2 for 5s

New Ironfist

• Instead of having ironfist as a bad, very situational AOE like it is now I would like to propose a new skill, that hopefully will be more useful
• Multiple thoughts go through my head when I think of ironfist. Firstly, someone smashing the ground and causing a rippling affect/earthquake. The second thing that goes through my head is someone, yet again smashing the ground but instead of the full circle AOE it is more of a line
• What I meant by a line AOE is demonstrated in this picture
  
• The red would be the base range, and then the green/yellow wool would be the scaling for the range.
• Scaling wise it would be the same as ironfist is right now (look at all the scaling farther up)
• Anyone in this area would be dealt damage, knocked up slightly (like forcetotem, no fall damage), and be given slow 3 for 3 seconds
• This skill would most likely have a larger warm up than the current ironfist
• Of course a lot of the finnicky stuff like, mana, range, warmup, cooldown, scaling can all be debated.

Alacrity

• Although I have not got a chance to really use this skill I do not like the idea behind it. A buff that lasts a long time, but has an expensive regent
• It gives 15 agility-which of course a good amount of agility but only one disciple skill scales off of agility-flyingkick
• In my opinion the problem is not that agility is not a helpful stat, it is that most classes don't really get that much of an advantage from it. Rangers get bonus damage, dragoons and ninjas can move farther with their mobility and everyone else gains a little bit of movement speed

New Alacrity (Name?)

• Although nothing is actually wrong with alacrity (other than how useful it is) it seems like a fairly 'meh' kinda skill
• The way a disciple plays against a melee class is usually by kiting, and I personally hate that fighting style
• To help promote a disciple to stay in a fight I think we should change alacrity

• It would be a passive skill
• Each time you hit an enemy (players or mobs-mobs for training purposes) you gain (and your party?) an X amount of strength and an X amount of intellect. I had 0.75 in mind.
• You can have a maximum of 10 stacks (which adds up to 7.5 intellect and 7.5 strength-15 stat points total-just like alacrity)
• These stacks go down two at a time for every 5 seconds you don't refresh the timer (you would refresh the timer by hitting someone)

Forcepull and push

• These skills do their job as you would expect them to but they don't do much damage
• Disciple only has 1 magic damage skill-smite and it does not have the strongest damage
• I am suggesting that we change the strength scaling on forcepull/push to intellect and have it do magic damage
• To help compensate for this change of course-change the scaling on forcepush to 0.75 per point instead of 1 per point

Flyingkick

• Right now, disciple is forced to spread their stats very thin
• You need to throw at least 10 points into agility to make flyingkick have a reasonable range
• So, instead of having to put any points into agility for the range we change the range scaling to strength

Seikuken

• Often enough when I use seikuken the slowness will make me not be able to turn, rubber band, and just bug out all around
• I do not know if this would be a simple code fix or we would have to change seikuken to slowness 3 (to compensate maybe increase the stamina it costs to use)

FistofJin

• Disciple is a healer-it is suppose to heal the group somewhat. So why exactly does FistofJin heal so little to the party.
• The disciple is always gaining more health than his surrounding allies when attacking (6 more, not a lot but it is a different). While the disciple is healing himself 12, he is only healing his allies 6.
• I suggest that we lower the self healing on FistofJin to 10 and bump up the 6 to an

Chakra

• Overall, the skill is fine but the main attraction to the skill is the debuff. Which requires 20 wisdom to debuff a single thing
• I suggest that instead of the required 20 wisdom needed, we reduce it to 15 wisdom needed

Renewal

• Compared to the other healers (maybe not bloodmage right now) disciple's single target heal is fairly bad. So I have two possible solutions
• First, we reduce the warmup. Right now disciple needs to create enough distance between him and the enemy (kiting) to make it through the massive warmup.
• Second, increase the scaling of renewal to better match that of one of a cleric's or druid's heals

Armor Weight

• Oh god. It is painful for disciple. Close to every one of disciple's fighting skills uses stamina and yet they start with -5 endurance-so they have really bad stamina regen. We need to throw a ton of points into endurance and get barely any armor for it
• I know this is one of the largest problems, but I do not know a good fix for it. Maybe buff the base armor weight? Or increase scaling? Or just buff the base endurance?

Overall, disciple needs some buffs. By all means, not every buff and change in this thread needs to be implemented because that just might make disciple extremely over powered. For example, the new Alacrity is not needed, but better fits disciple. The new ironfist is just a new idea, but some simple buffs could fix what we have now. But with some refining and input from the rest of you we will be able to bring disciple up to par.

@Balance Team

 

[Dsawemd]

New Ironfist: Target range is too long, and easy to land. Disciple already has the Force moves as a ranged-control moveset. IronFist should fulfill a different purpose than Force moves. Is current IronFist effective defensively, to begin getting range for ForcePush and kiting?
Either way, if IronFist becomes a line effect, it would be wider and less long than what you have in the image so as to retain its intended use.


New Alacrity: Many classes recently received these skills to buff attributes. Alacrity increases agility, I know Courage for Cleric increases constitution, and others increase or decrease other attributes. Someone needs the agility buff. If FlyingKick did not scale off agility, this skill would be even more of a support skill, and perhaps could be considered better suited for a different class.

Currently, disciple is one of the less supportive healing classes, and it can use the Alacrity buff despite it being useful for only a few classes as you noted.

Your Alacrity skill replacement suggestion combined with your FistofJin change takes Disciple in a new direction. It would highly reward you for staying in melee range, and would require testing. Also, I doubt it would grant any serious amount of STR and INT, that makes the entire party very happy no matter what class they are.


FlyingKick: I agree that FlyingKick should not be the only skill that scales off of agility, it feels clunky compared to other class layouts (unless you consider alacrity in which case it seems deliberate). However, distance scaling would be changed to INT instead of STR for several reasons.

Seikuken: This skill has been effective during my experience on the test server many times and in-game this map once. Other disciples, discuss?

Chakra: In-game tooltip says it removes 2 buffs. This skill is in a good place. What do you mean it requires 15 wisdom?

Renewal: Kiting for disciples should be possible when they want to get through some of a warm-up by using their control skills to create distance. Disciple has too much damage to have better base damage, but better WIS scaling could be possible to offer a choice between a viable damage disciple and a viable moderate healing/less damage disciple. However, Disciple and BM healing will not be very comparable to Cleric and Druid healing, since their damage outputs are respectively likewise not very comparable.

Armor Weight: Consider limiting the variable of armor for disciples so that balancing is possible. If disciples could only wear up to Chain (for example) regardless of their armor weight, then the base armor weight could be increased. Lore does state that they are naked/lightly armored.

 

[Egorh]

New Ironfist: Target range is too long, and easy to land. Disciple already has the Force moves as a ranged-control moveset. IronFist should fulfill a different purpose than Force moves. Is current IronFist effective defensively, to begin getting range for ForcePush and kiting?
Either way, if IronFist becomes a line effect, it would be wider and less long than what you have in the image so as to retain its intended use.


New Alacrity: Many classes recently received these skills to buff attributes. Alacrity increases agility, I know Courage for Cleric increases constitution, and others increase or decrease other attributes. Someone needs the agility buff. If FlyingKick did not scale off agility, this skill would be even more of a support skill, and perhaps could be considered better suited for a different class.

Currently, disciple is one of the less supportive healing classes, and it can use the Alacrity buff despite it being useful for only a few classes as you noted.

Your Alacrity skill replacement suggestion combined with your FistofJin change takes Disciple in a new direction. It would highly reward you for staying in melee range, and would require testing. Also, I doubt it would grant any serious amount of STR and INT, that makes the entire party very happy no matter what class they are.


FlyingKick: I agree that FlyingKick should not be the only skill that scales off of agility, it feels clunky compared to other class layouts (unless you consider alacrity in which case it seems deliberate). However, distance scaling would be changed to INT instead of STR for several reasons.

Seikuken: This skill has been effective during my experience on the test server many times and in-game this map once. Other disciples, discuss?

Chakra: In-game tooltip says it removes 2 buffs. This skill is in a good place. What do you mean it requires 15 wisdom?

Renewal: Kiting for disciples should be possible when they want to get through some of a warm-up by using their control skills to create distance. Disciple has too much damage to have better base damage, but better WIS scaling could be possible to offer a choice between a viable damage disciple and a viable moderate healing/less damage disciple. However, Disciple and BM healing will not be very comparable to Cleric and Druid healing, since their damage outputs are respectively likewise not very comparable.
Armor Weight: Consider limiting the variable of armor for disciples so that balancing is possible. If disciples could only wear up to Chain (for example) regardless of their armor weight, then the base armor weight could be increased. Lore does state that they are naked/lightly armored.

Seikuken: I only made the suggestion because often enough I do get buggy when I'm in seikuken, not turning, rubber banding etc.

Chakra: You need a certain amount of wisdom for 1 debuff-at the moment it is 20 wisdom, then I think 40 wisdom for two. I am not completely sure about the 2nd debuff

Renewal: Better scaling for wisdom would be good, this class is a healer. A single target heal should be able to match a single target heal of another healer-makes sense to me, although I may not be expressing my thoughts too well. You won't heal that much without wisdom but you should really see the difference with wisdom

Ironfist: I don't really like skills that are similar to other skills. The ironfist right now is between tremor and force totem (imo), and it does not do its job effectively. The slow is too weak to make a noticeable difference and the knock away is too small to cause any real displacement among a team fight

Flyingkick: Please elaborate when you say for several reasons. The only real reason I can put my finger on right now is that the push power of forcepush and the pull range of forcepull scale off of intellect.

 

[Dsawemd]

Renewal: Better scaling for wisdom would be good, this class is a healer. A single target heal should be able to match a single target heal of another healer-makes sense to me, although I may not be expressing my thoughts too well. You won't heal that much without wisdom but you should really see the difference with wisdom

Ironfist: I don't really like skills that are similar to other skills. The ironfist right now is between tremor and force totem (imo), and it does not do its job effectively. The slow is too weak to make a noticeable difference and the knock away is too small to cause any real displacement among a team fight

Flyingkick: Please elaborate when you say for several reasons. The only real reason I can put my finger on right now is that the push power of forcepush and the pull range of forcepull scale off of intellect.

Renewal: If you want it to match other classes healing skills, the warm-up will not be reduced while the healing is buffed, even through optional WIS scaling. Since the warm-up was central to your original point, you may want to explore what Cleric and Druid single target heals feel like, on test server.

IronFist: The version you suggested is very similar to ForcePush and ForcePull, so your argument for disliking skills that are common to the game is ineffectual. IronFist is designed to be an AoE displacement cc, not another knockback, and definitely not a medium-long ranged skill. Again, you are basically asking for a new skill, one that is more similiar to ForcePush, ForcePull and FlyingKick than the current implementation of IronFist is. I'd like to hear from other disciples on how useful the skill is, but to my understanding IronFist was designed to be used with ForcePush to gain distance (the skill used to work MUCH better only if the target was in the air) and was used to keep a target or group around for a split second longer to help kite, or land a warm-up skill or burst AoE from a party member.

FlyingKick: Why FlyingKick scaling with STR would be too strong of a buff.
1. As you stated, Disciples recognize the value of the range of their gap closer that also interrupts casting. They put a few points into agility just for this skill (and mobility) currently. This is a skill with strong potential.
2. All of Disciples bread and butter/damage is increased by STR (besides increasing the damage of FlyingKick, STR increases melee AND ForceSkills AND QuiveringPalm). Meaning that Disciple could emphasize STR for optimal damage and gap-closing, which would make for some very strong pvp.
3. As you noted, the class has a precedent for skill range being set by INT, with the ForceSkills.

 

[Egorh]

Renewal: If you want it to match other classes healing skills, the warm-up will not be reduced while the healing is buffed, even through optional WIS scaling. Since the warm-up was central to your original point, you may want to explore what Cleric and Druid single target heals feel like, on test server.

IronFist: The version you suggested is very similar to ForcePush and ForcePull, so your argument for disliking skills that are common to the game is ineffectual. IronFist is designed to be an AoE displacement cc, not another knockback, and definitely not a medium-long ranged skill. Again, you are basically asking for a new skill, one that is more similiar to ForcePush, ForcePull and FlyingKick than the current implementation of IronFist is. I'd like to hear from other disciples on how useful the skill is, but to my understanding IronFist was designed to be used with ForcePush to gain distance (the skill used to work MUCH better only if the target was in the air) and was used to keep a target or group around for a split second longer to help kite, or land a warm-up skill or burst AoE from a party member.

FlyingKick: Why FlyingKick scaling with STR would be too strong of a buff.
1. As you stated, Disciples recognize the value of the range of their gap closer that also interrupts casting. They put a few points into agility just for this skill (and mobility) currently. This is a skill with strong potential.
2. All of Disciples bread and butter/damage is increased by STR (besides increasing the damage of FlyingKick, STR increases melee AND ForceSkills AND QuiveringPalm). Meaning that Disciple could emphasize STR for optimal damage and gap-closing, which would make for some very strong pvp.
3. As you noted, the class has a precedent for skill range being set by INT, with the ForceSkills.

As for renewal I think you may have read my post wrong-or I did not make it that clear. It was either or. Either this option, or this one. I could've worded it better

My ironfist is not similar to those skills imo. It fits with them. But as you said it pretty much is a new skill, would probably easier to balance if we just buffed the ironfist we have now. I guess I'm always wanting to add in new stuff to make it 'cooler'. I can be biased

Yea, I agree with those points on flyingkick

Overall the importance (imo) of the changes I stated goes like this: Agility/Alacrity/Flyingkick, endurance/armor weight, forcepull/push magic damage and then renewal. The other stuff-not exactly crucial. FistofJin suggestion was to help heal a bit more in group fights, chakra was for people who would rather put less focus into wisdom, so on so forth

 

[Dsawemd]

Thanks for clarification on Renewal, I understood "firstly" and "secondly" as consecutive rather than a choice.

I agree with the spirit of this thread, which is (imo):

Disciple has too many variables to optimize between Agility, low Armor Weight, and defining their role as either a healer or a damage dealer. With too little definition and too little opportunity to optimize certain aspects, Disciple is approaching the "jack-ass of all trades, master of none" level. Despite this lack of a clear role, the class is still decently balanced in it's current implementation.

Big picture: Disciple should retain the variety of attributes and abilities that make the class what it is. However, it would be nice to see viable builds for Damage-focused weak-armored medium-heals Disciples as well as Healing-focused weak-armored medium-damage Disciple.

Edit: Because of the amount of discussion surrounding disciple recently, I am assuming that general consensus is to go ahead and explore potential reworks with the goal finding a new implementation of the class. How much change are people thinking?
@Balance Team

 

[Egorh]

Another way we could go with Ironfist would be to have it in 'pulses'. Pretty much the concept is that when you activate ironfist it will have 3 pulses that do the same thing ironfist does now but maybe with slow 3 for 1s and less of a knock back. This is just a random idea that popped into my head that I thought would be a possible route to take (although I have not really developed my idea at all)

 

[JupiterRome]

Or maybe change Alarcity (whatever its called) to something that buffs all attributes so that if they use it before a fight they don't have to spend attributes so thin? (this way they could better focus on 1 category and still be ok in others)

 

[LightningCape]

Don't have enough time to type anything meaningful but I do agree Ironfist needs a change. I do generally collect information on healers but I'm not that well informed about disciple tbh

 

[Dsawemd]

Or maybe change Alarcity (whatever its called) to something that buffs all attributes so that if they use it before a fight they don't have to spend attributes so thin? (this way they could better focus on 1 category and still be ok in others)

/skill blessing is a cleric skill that buffs all attributes by 5. Here is the link to the attribute skills thread http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/buff-debuff-skills.49140/#post-388832

As far as I know, the skills in Kainzo's suggestion are in-game. There is a reason Disciple got alacrity, to allow for a really strong and mobile top tier pvp skill combo with FlyingKick's increased range due to alacrity. Also, the skill makes any class considerably more mobile, as well as strongly buffing select classes.

 

[JupiterRome]

/skill blessing is a cleric skill that buffs all attributes by 5. Here is the link to the attribute skills thread http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/buff-debuff-skills.49140/#post-388832

As far as I know, the skills in Kainzo's suggestion are in-game. There is a reason Disciple got alacrity, to allow for a really strong and mobile top tier pvp skill combo with FlyingKick's increased range due to alacrity. Also, the skill makes any class considerably more mobile, as well as strongly buffing select classes.

I know cleric has blessing.....

 

[Dsawemd]

Oh. You suggested a copy of Blessing without talking about Blessing...

Anyway, the thread I linked is still useful for the Alacrity discussion and your suggestion. If it belongs with disciple, if it moves to a new class, where it moves, etc.

 

[Egorh]

Took this thread about 2 or 3 days die out. The only real posts were @Dsawemd and we can't really continue this idea without more input from the @Balance Team.

Maybe we need some changes-remove some people-add some efficient people. Although I know Malik was removed for reasons he really did get things done and it seems as though our 'balancing' has really slowed down without a definite leader. If I am thought to be unproductive on the Balance Team, by all means-remove me, as long as things get done. @Kainzo

 

[mikehk]

I'll get on on test tonight and test it a bit IF test server is up for once.

 

[mikehk]

aaaand test is down as usual.

 

[Dsawemd]

On-topic bump. Disciple feels weak currently as a solo fighter, but lacks the heals to be a solid group support class. Therefore Disciple is a squishy support-control melee. Feels weird.

 

[Dsawemd]

@Balance Team bump.

WIS now scales disciple melee damage instead of STR. Discuss how this would affect the class, and take a stab at the topic of the thread, tweaking disciple.

 

[Sirdemonic3]

@Balance Team bump.

WIS now scales disciple melee damage instead of STR. Discuss how this would affect the class, and take a stab at the topic of the thread, tweaking disciple.

that makes no sense, why would wisdom, aka the stat for mana regen and healing make you hit people in the face harder

 

[Dsawemd]

Because of (Bhuddist/Shaolin/etc.) monk lore. Monks meditated to gain their strength, and the most badass kung fu masters were always wise old men with decades of facial hair. The lore is there to make an argument if the change is warranted.

The idea is to increase the viability of Disc healing builds. Balancing may be required on skills to keep ForceMoves effective and healing reasonable of course.

edit: if it makes the idea more palatable: /skill WiseOldMan - Disciple's melee benefits from Wisdom scaling for X seconds. This idea would have a different effect, but is still trying to get disciple tweaking talked about in general.

 

[Sirdemonic3]

but u cant just make there damage scale off of a stat that doesent affect damage in any way. its pretty wierd.