Suggestion Dark bolt change

[Beau_Nearh]

Dark Bolt for pyromancer, unlocked at level 35.

Current skill;

Mana cost - 120
Stamina cost - 275
Cool down (CD) - 20 seconds
Damage - 50 (+1.5 per intellect level)
Other effects - applies a wither effect to targets caught within a 4 block radius from the explosion for 10 seconds (target takes 1hp per tick of wither). Also, target caught within the effect is healed for 25% less.


Suggested changes to skill (this is the first suggestion);

Mana cost - 100
Stamina cost - 220
Cool down (CD) - 13 seconds
Damage - 35 (+1.75 per intellect point)
Other effects - applies a wither effect to targets caught within a 2 (+0.55 per intellect level) block radius from the explosion for 6 (+0.25 per charisma level). Heals the user for 15/20 HP per 2 seconds the target is being withered for.

OR

Suggested changes to skill (second suggestion);

Mana cost - 160
Stamina cost - 250
Cool down (CD) - 20 seconds
Damage - 40 (+1.75 per intellect level)
Other effects - applies a wither effect to targets caught within a 3 (+0.025 per intellect level) block radius from the explosion for 12 (+0.1 per charisma level). Drains targets caught for 15 mana per second and grants user 10/5 mana per second.


I'd really like some feedback on these possible changes to dark bolt. I have only made this suggestion due to having personal experience using it both in PVE and PVP. Thank in advance.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Removing the "healing nerf" debuff from this skill is something I strongly disagree with. If anything, some other aspects of the class need to be nerfed so that the healing nerf can be increased without overtipping the balance of the class.

That mechanic is what allows the Pyromancer to have a chance at teamfight viability over other classes. If you remove it, he will surely be outclassed by more effective support types.

 

[Beau_Nearh]

Removing the "healing nerf" debuff from this skill is something I strongly disagree with. If anything, some other aspects of the class need to be nerfed so that the healing nerf can be increased without overtipping the balance of the class.

That mechanic is what allows the Pyromancer to have a chance at teamfight viability over other classes. If you remove it, he will surely be outclassed by more effective support types.

Okay this is a very valid point. I guess this is why it's explosion radius is so big? The main problem I'm finding with this skill however is that the wither effect does cause some attacks/ skills to miss due to the tick damage. Is there a solution to fix this or is it just a normal minecraft problem? Also while your here, what would your opinion be on giving pyro a self healing ability or a skill that grants the pyro health for the damage it outputs?

 

[Dsawemd]

what would your opinion be on giving pyro a self healing ability or a skill that grants the pyro health for the damage it outputs?

Why are you blatantly trying to "buff" pyro (you have 4 buff pyro threads up)? The class takes skill to play, but it is in a decent place.

 

[Beau_Nearh]

Why are you blatantly trying to "buff" pyro (you have 4 buff pyro threads up)? The class takes skill to play, but it is in a decent place.

Text wall incoming, you brought this upon yourself..

Let me just set one thing straight, I soley choose to play pyro as it was a heavily underused class and actually seemed like fun playing as (don't regret it this far). However, that being said. I will most likely change my class to another one upon mastering pyro. I'm not trying to buff the class so that I personally gain from using it at all. There are reasons to why certain classes aren't played, this is why I've made reasonable suggestions for possible changes to the existing skills. Sure the class is fun to play but it just doesn't quite stand up to other classes that have more specified job roles.

Currently as it stands (and I'm my opinion), pyro is a very odd class. It has high burst capabilities as well as a very rogue like melee damage (one of the highest out of all the classes) while still being able to have a decent overall Hp/ armor. This in my opinion is why it is under played. It doesn't specalise in any of these departments at all. It is easily out shined by other more specalised classes that are more specific to their job roles as well as having a skill set that complements it's role. There are a few skills within pyromancer that feels 'misplaced'. More importantly, there are quite a few skills that don't actually bring anything to the table. Now onto why I made my suggestions regarding each skill.

Chaos orb suggestion run down

In all honestly, I'd swap out chaos orb for fireball any day of the week but then the class itself would loose it's uniqueness (and fun). So, rather than mindlessly suggesting that. I looked at the current skill to see what's wrong with it and compared it to fireball (only similar skill I could compare with). The main problem that stuck out to me was how actually useful it was. Damage wise it is amazing don't get me wrong but fireball is just as good and can accomplish this at a range as well as doesn't force the player to comit when using it.

Now, other than the fact it teleports you to where the orb lands. It is just a shorter ranged fireball with a smaller cool down. To address these issues and give it more uniqueness. I mainly suggested a way to move away from the poor 'fireball' feel and give it some actual use. This mainly included lowering the damage a lot and making it so it applies a root to a target it hits for 1 second. (Would actually give pyro's high melee more use than what it currently has).

Dragons breath suggestion rundown

So, after looking at all the available skills pyro has. I saw that it is actually missing a proper AOE skill. The closet skills it has to an AOE was dragons breath as well as combustion (don't have an opinion combustion yet). The skill dragons breath does seem feel a but like a filler' skill because it does deal alright damage with a modest cool down and range however other than the fact it pratically blinds your screen upon using it (in a good, funny way). It doesn't actually bring much to the table other than straight damage and a blinding light. (This is pratically the equilvent to a magic maim without applying a slowness effect to the target).

My solution was to just take it out and replace it with another skill (as suggested) to give pyro a more useful skill rather than a magic maim of blinding light. This skill came in the form of an AOE that drags the targets closer to the player before spitting them out and dealing a reasonable amount of damage (think reckoning, this skill would also aid more in group PVP). Again, on my suggestion I did try to balance out the stats of the specific skill.(haven't had any feedback on it yet).

Dark bolt suggestion rundown

Now personally, I do really like this skill as it adds different 'feel' when comparing to other skills that pyro has (Maybe the fact it's the only ranged skill it has?).That being said though, it's viability isn't the best. It seems as this skill is trying to accomplish two things at the same time. These being; a skill to help in group PVP and a skill that helps close in on targets. My only thought process from taking this in was to "why not just specialise it in one area?" (This seems to be the jist of pyro as a whole currently).

This is where my suggestion comes in, rather than trying to be a support skill by reducing all targets caught within health gains by 25%, why not enable the pyro to do what it does best currently? Burst damage and general left clicking when your mana runs out. (I was leaning more towards the mana steal option over the HP option).


Overall play style and feel of pyro

From playing as pyro for the last 2 weeks, it feels as it is a class that tries to close down on its targets with very high pressure. However, the skills it currently has doesn't help this play style at all. Overall, the skills at the end of the day must at least compliment or encourage this type of playstyle otherwise. Due to the lack of stuns/ slows and genral utility skills, it doesn't quite accomplish this at all (it's got the right concepts though!). I hope all this has made the reasons behind my suggestions a lot more clear. Thanks for reading!



Note - the reason to why I've only made suggestions regarding these skills is because I've had a reasonable amount of time to have a mess about with them. Until I unlock/ mess about with other pyro skills, I won't have an opinion on them until I use them.

 

[JupiterRome]

Pyro is tankier then other mages has melee and has a stun and some of the highest burst in Herocraft, Sounds underpowered guys please buff

chaos orb Can Prevent fall damage which has saved pyros I've gone head to head with many times after I forcepush them off a cliff,
A Well Shot Dragons Breath can hit aton of people in a teamfight and do tons of damage, omfg it blinds you guys needs buff/change that argument could also be used on Necros Bonespear Beguilers Chaotic vision or any other class with fireworks

 

[pure_autism]

Pyro is tankier then other mages has melee and has a stun and some of the highest burst in Herocraft, Sounds underpowered guys please buff

chaos orb Can Prevent fall damage which has saved pyros I've gone head to head with many times after I forcepush them off a cliff,
A Well Shot Dragons Breath can hit aton of people in a teamfight and do tons of damage, omfg it blinds you guys needs buff/change that argument could also be used on Necros Bonespear Beguilers Chaotic vision or any other class with fireworks

The only buff I'd like to see in Pyromancer is to possibly have the DarkBolt healing debuff imcreased, possibly at the cost of some of its damage, as there is not very much counter play to a kiting Disciple or heavy Healers in general. Another skill to use in the burst rotation would be cool too, also at the cost of some damage.

Sometimes it gets boring doing Stun, ChaosOrb, hit hit hit hit all the time, similar to how people got bored of Beguiler in Haven for the same reasons. Heck, even making DoomWave not miss when you're a block away from someone would be nice. At least then, the combo would be Stun, ChaosOrb, DoomWave (You wouldn't have time to melee) which would do 5ish hearts compared to the 6-7ish it does with melee.

It would be magic damage, so it would affect tanks more than anything (Less damage to mages vs not using DoomWave and using melee since melee damage does a lot more to squishy players), providing a way to deal damage good to Paladins.

 

[JupiterRome]

The only buff I'd like to see in Pyromancer is to possibly have the DarkBolt healing debuff imcreased, possibly at the cost of some of its damage, as there is not very much counter play to a kiting Disciple or heavy Healers in general. Another skill to use in the burst rotation would be cool too, also at the cost of some damage.

Sometimes it gets boring doing Stun, ChaosOrb, hit hit hit hit all the time, similar to how people got bored of Beguiler in Haven for the same reasons. Heck, even making DoomWave not miss when you're a block away from someone would be nice. At least then, the combo would be Stun, ChaosOrb, DoomWave (You wouldn't have time to melee) which would do 5ish hearts compared to the 6-7ish it does with melee.

It would be magic damage, so it would affect tanks more than anything (Less damage to mages vs not using DoomWave and using melee since melee damage does a lot more to squishy players), providing a way to deal damage good to Paladins.

Agreed, I honestly don't like the healers kiting playstyle because if your good at it its annoying to fight you and I just walk away from those fights sometimes because 8 minute 3v3s are boring

 

[Dsawemd]

1. I'm not trying to buff the class so that I personally gain from using it at all. There are reasons to why certain classes aren't played, this is why I've made reasonable suggestions for possible changes to the existing skills. Sure the class is fun to play but it just doesn't quite stand up to other classes that have more specified job roles.

2. Currently as it stands (and I'm my opinion), pyro is a very odd class. It has high burst capabilities as well as a very rogue like melee damage (one of the highest out of all the classes) while still being able to have a decent overall Hp/ armor. This in my opinion is why it is under played.

3. It doesn't specalise in any of these departments at all. It is easily out shined by other more specalised classes that are more specific to their job roles as well as having a skill set that complements it's role.

4. There are a few skills within pyromancer that feels 'misplaced'. More importantly, there are quite a few skills that don't actually bring anything to the table.

Chaos orb suggestion run down

-snip, see text wall for full quote-
I mainly suggested a way to move away from the poor 'fireball' feel and give it some actual use.

Dragons breath suggestion rundown

-snip see text wall for full quote-
So, after looking at all the available skills pyro has. I saw that it is actually missing a proper AOE skill.
The closet skills it has to an AOE was dragons breath as well as combustion (don't have an opinion combustion yet).

Dark bolt suggestion rundown

-snip, see text wall for full quote-
It seems as this skill is trying to accomplish two things at the same time. These being; a skill to help in group PVP and a skill that helps close in on targets.

Overall play style and feel of pyro

-snip, see text wall for full quote-
Due to the lack of stuns/ slows and genral utility skills, it doesn't quite accomplish this at all (it's got the right concepts though!). I hope all this has made the reasons behind my suggestions a lot more clear.


5. Until I unlock/ mess about with other pyro skills, I won't have an opinion on them until I use them.

1. Pyro is not in a bad place, it is underplayed because it is difficult to land the short range skillshots. If you can land the short range skillshots, a Pyro is a wrecking ball.
2. High melee damage and High base armor are not why the class is underplayed. These are positive things. The reason pyro is underplayed is that in order to use these stats, the pyro must melee and other classes on the server can out-run a pyro. But in a fight where the Pyro and the opponent both want/have to fight to the death, Pyro is strong.
3. Pyro shines quite well in the Left-Click burst department currently.
4. Detail these skills, please.

ChaosOrb Suggestion:
It has an actual use. Do not use it to try and chase on flat ground. If you can throw it past an obstacle that your opponent must navigate, or down a hill, use it to chase. Otherwise, only use it when you can land the damage. A good pyro can use ChaosOrb to help prevent kiting by cutting off a player who is turning and not running straight, but a bad pyro will chuck it after a sprinting opponent, and waste time and resources.

DragonsBreath Suggestion:
Pyro not having a great AoE =/= "Missing an AoE". The class is not designed like the other casters.

Darkbolt Suggestion:
Ever since Sprint Button available to all, DarkBolt has been useless to catch people. That's one reason why they included the Healing debuff. As it stands it is one of the more unique and useful teamfight debuffs.

Overall Playstyle:
It has a stun, and the stun is ESSENTIAL for pyro's to win. Learn to use opportunities to land GreatCombustion or else you will quickly respec to an easier class.

5. Dafuq? You aren't even mastered yet? How can you even claim that you know what the class feels like, much less suggest huge sweeping changes? This is a blatant attempt to strongly change this class before you even have any max level experience

Tl : dr The kid hasn't mastered even pyro yet. He says he will have an opinion on the skills he unlocks as he reaches them, and he has no opinion posted about GreatCombustion, which a vet pyro knows is a gamechanger for pyro.

@Beau_Nearh Master the class, practice with it, come back, and make less than 4 suggestions at the same time if you want to be taken seriously, imo. At LEAST master the class...

 

[Delfofthebla]

Note - the reason to why I've only made suggestions regarding these skills is because I've had a reasonable amount of time to have a mess about with them. Until I unlock/ mess about with other pyro skills, I won't have an opinion on them until I use them.

Do you have GreatCombustion yet? The moment you obtain that skill is the moment your class feels "complete".


GreatCombustion is a skill that changes the entire way the class is played. It becomes the basis of your rotation, and all your skills essentially revolve around it's usage. A Pyromancer missing a GreatCombustion almost certainly leads to a loss on his part. This was something I tried to avoid doing when I reworked most of the classes, but Pyro was not lucky enough to be in the list of successes for that matter. GreatCombustion, like Plaguebomb was for Beguiler, is what makes the class play how it does.

If you have not yet gotten this skill, I strongly suggest you hold off on pushing any buffs / changes to the class until you've had a decent amount of time to play with it. You'd be surprised how different your fights play out with it in your arsenal.

 

[Beau_Nearh]

Do you have GreatCombustion yet? The moment you obtain that skill is the moment your class feels "complete".


GreatCombustion is a skill that changes the entire way the class is played. It becomes the basis of your rotation, and all your skills essentially revolve around it's usage. A Pyromancer missing a GreatCombustion almost certainly leads to a loss on his part. This was something I tried to avoid doing when I reworked most of the classes, but Pyro was not lucky enough to be in the list of successes for that matter. GreatCombustion, like Plaguebomb was for Beguiler, is what makes the class play how it does.

If you have not yet gotten this skill, I strongly suggest you hold off on pushing any buffs / changes to the class until you've had a decent amount of time to play with it. You'd be surprised how different your fights play out with it in your arsenal.

Hm, I'll take that into account then. But surley this is a problem if this skill has such a big impact on pyro?

 

[Delfofthebla]

You could view it that way, and like I said, it was something I tried to avoid with most classes, but sometimes it just ends up that way.

When I was designing Pyromancer, I noticed that it had issues really "staying on top of" a target. However I did not want the class to be very mobile in the middle of combat. But I didn't want it to get kited for years either. A stun was my solution to that. Unfortunately, a stun was very very powerful for the Pyromancer, and so I had to nerf other things in order to maintain the balance. This lead to the skill dominating the playstyle and balance of the class.

You can view it as good or bad, but I really like Pyro. I find it to be a fun and interesting class, despite it's faults. And now that I'm no longer a dev, its unlikely to ever receive any major changes or reworks for a long time. So, meh, it is what it is.

But there are really only two issues with it.

1) Low level Pyro's are much weaker than high level Pyro's.
2) Kainzo is whimsical, and if at any time he decides to cut the skill, or change it drastically, the entire class will break.

Beguiler had this same issue with PlagueBomb. Though I'd argue Plaguebomb was much more important than GreatCombustion is.

Unfortunately for Beguiler, and anyone who played it, the server crashed once, and Kainzo deduced PlagueBomb was at fault. (It wasn't, but the console log made it look like it was PlagueBomb's fault.) So Kainzo cut the skill and now it is gone forever.

One can only hope it doesn't happen to Pyro too! /cower

 

[Beau_Nearh]

You could view it that way, and like I said, it was something I tried to avoid with most classes, but sometimes it just ends up that way.

When I was designing Pyromancer, I noticed that it had issues really "staying on top of" a target. However I did not want the class to be very mobile in the middle of combat. But I didn't want it to get kited for years either. A stun was my solution to that. Unfortunately, a stun was very very powerful for the Pyromancer, and so I had to nerf other things in order to maintain the balance. This lead to the skill dominating the playstyle and balance of the class.

You can view it as good or bad, but I really like Pyro. I find it to be a fun and interesting class, despite it's faults. And now that I'm no longer a dev, its unlikely to ever receive any major changes or reworks for a long time. So, meh, it is what it is.

But there are really only two issues with it.

1) Low level Pyro's are much weaker than high level Pyro's.
2) Kainzo is whimsical, and if at any time he decides to cut the skill, or change it drastically, the entire class will break.

Beguiler had this same issue with PlagueBomb. Though I'd argue Plaguebomb was much more important than GreatCombustion is.

Unfortunately for Beguiler, and anyone who played it, the server crashed once, and Kainzo deduced PlagueBomb was at fault. (It wasn't, but the console log made it look like it was PlagueBomb's fault.) So Kainzo cut the skill and now it is gone forever.

One can only hope it doesn't happen to Pyro too! /cower

Yeah, I was trying to address that issue with a change to chaos orb as well as re-designing dragons breath. But I do agree with you, pyro is and has been the most fun to play class I've used so far. However, the problem with low level pyro's could be addressed by rearranging some skills as it is in dire need of a early stun ability. And about the class breaking, well that's down to @Balance Team making it work and fixing it.

But I doubt pyro having it taken away, it would honestly break the class as it's the only stun it has (other than maim that slows).