Attributes change.

[Kainzo]

We're moving away from the attribute gain per level and introduce a set attribute amount for each class.

We'll need balance team members to come up with suitable attribute ranges for each class.

Note: Attributes will be gained only from items / buffs --- instead of level up. We'll want to a "max" allocation amount for each class and find a happy balance.

Because confusion:

• Attributes are staying.
• How they effect things are staying the same
• Classes will have a BASE amount of attributes (increased from the current) similar to what we have at lvl 65.
• Endurance will be changed to let classes have "armor sets" again.
• All hp / mana / atk (by 50%) gain on level will be decreased to justify level spread PVP.

 

[peterpunx]

Hi, right now attributes can change damage, mana/stamina regen, +/- 5 armor, +/-10%health.

Whats the plan? give a hoe +5 mana regen? if thats the kind of change it should be easy to balance.

 

[Egorh]

Are you looking to give each class a different set of attributes so it resembles the current scaling/damage system or would you rather have each class start at 0 everything, with no scaling (other than buffs/weapons) and high base numbers.

What I mean by everything starts at 0: Things would have high base damage, healing, etc. instead of lower base stuff that scales. Then they would scale from 0 accordingly.

Having each class have their own attribute set will work but we will need to treat the base stats as scaling. Meaning we would need to take much more time considering scaling, # of points in this, etc. I feel as though it would be more work.

I would rather see each class start at 0 in everything because it will allow us to deal with the base numbers on each skill without worrying about overall scaling from each attribute.

 

[malikdanab]

Like true I think everyone should start of with a base of 0. From there I think it would be best that attributes increase stats by a percentage instead of the same for every class.

 

[Egorh]

I am also going to propose the removal of Endurance in favour for set armour. The stat's main use is for increasing armour weight but we won't really want that if we have set armour. And the stamina regeneration increase is not very noticeable in most cases

 

[malikdanab]

Just going to throw some ideas out:

Constitution: Increase HP and Max Stamina
Endurance: Increase Stamina Regen and Reduce CC Duration?
Charisma: Increase CC skills and Magic Resist

 

[Kainzo]

Just going to throw some ideas out:

Constitution: Increase HP and Max Stamina
Endurance: Increase Stamina Regen and Reduce CC Duration?
Charisma: Increase CC skills and Magic Resist

I am also going to propose the removal of Endurance in favour for set armour. The stat's main use is for increasing armour weight but we won't really want that if we have set armour. And the stamina regeneration increase is not very noticeable in most cases

Like true I think everyone should start of with a base of 0. From there I think it would be best that attributes increase stats by a percentage instead of the same for every class.

Because confusion:

• Attributes are staying.
• How they effect things are staying the same
• Classes will have a BASE amount of attributes (increased from the current) similar to what we have at lvl 65.
• Endurance will be changed to let classes have "armor sets" again.
• All hp / mana / atk gain on level will be decreased to justify level spread PVP.

 

[malikdanab]

I still think that stat increases should be % based, but this is still better than what we have now.

 

[Yavool]

I am confused and curious. Why the move away from the way that attributes are currently?

1) They permit player customization of their hero experience
2) They allow players to choose to be balanced in stats or spike their stats
3) They provide an even distribution of points per level
4) They allow easy tweaking of spells for balancing purposes
5) There are so many other things that are in need of attention right now in HC

Again I ask, why mess with something that seems to be working fine? A change in attributes isn't going to persuade a player to keep playing, is it?

Thanks for helping me understand the reasoning behind this choice.

-yav

 

[Egorh]

I am confused and curious. Why the move away from the way that attributes are currently?

1) They permit player customization of their hero experience
2) They allow players to choose to be balanced in stats or spike their stats
3) They provide an even distribution of points per level
4) They allow easy tweaking of spells for balancing purposes
5) There are so many other things that are in need of attention right now in HC

Again I ask, why mess with something that seems to be working fine? A change in attributes isn't going to persuade a player to keep playing, is it?

Thanks for helping me understand the reasoning behind this choice.

-yav

1) The customization is extremely limited if you still want to be on par with everyone else. Everyone uses a similar build with not many variations because that is what makes a class most effective

2) Spiking a stat only works on a few classes, and when they do that they sacrifice a lot. Overall it only assists the class in a few, minor situations and heavily punishes them in others. The two groups of people that will probably do this are the veteran PvPers who are in the mood to 'troll' and new players that know no better

3) That is just an aspect of attributes and mainly influences the process of levelling. Overall the new attribute system would make it easier to level because you would not need to choose between getting some health to survive mobs or getting the damage to kill mobs. It would also be fairly easy to apply certain attribute points at certain levels to accomplish 'scaling per level'

4) This will not change. From what Kainzo has said we know that he plans to give each class a unique set of base attributes (but attributes that resemble the current system at level 65). Overall from my point of view it makes balancing more difficult and tedious. Instead of working with flat base amounts we need to work with a balanced mix of scaling and base numbers. It works well in some cases but often enough it over complicates things

5) Of course I can't read Kainzo's thoughts so I do not know for sure, but I can give my opinion. The community is dying, and plenty of people have voiced their opinions that they want to make things more base/simple. Kainzo has taken steps to begin to 'cater' to this large group of people and this is one of them.

Some people like attributes and some people don't. Others simply think it is a nuisance and a pain to deal with (For example, me!). Since one build is normally known as the most effective people will not really stray too far from it. Because there is that one best build for each class you can't have unique attributes without getting shit on in PvP. It is not a lot of work for experienced players to handle their attributes but it is very complicated for new players. I don't know if you have noticed but peaking at 40 people during a weekend is not desirable. People come on HeroCraft play for a day and end up leaving due to many factors (one of them being how complicated everything is)

 

[Yavool]

1) The customization is extremely limited if you still want to be on par with everyone else. Everyone uses a similar build with not many variations because that is what makes a class most effective

I am confused at why this "everyone else" aspect is important. Customization is the ability to allow a player to make their experience unique and try things out separate of what everyone else is doing.

2) Spiking a stat only works on a few classes, and when they do that they sacrifice a lot. Overall it only assists the class in a few, minor situations and heavily punishes them in others. The two groups of people that will probably do this are the veteran PvPers who are in the mood to 'troll' and new players that know no better

What you says true about the effectiveness of spiking a state, but the point is that the current system allows the ability to do so. By standardizing attributes, players lose the ability to experiment and the flexibility of trying new builds that work for their situation and/or their party or town's needs.

[3) That is just an aspect of attributes and mainly influences the process of levelling. Overall the new attribute system would make it easier to level because you would not need to choose between getting some health to survive mobs or getting the damage to kill mobs. It would also be fairly easy to apply certain attribute points at certain levels to accomplish 'scaling per level'

There is no need to make leveling "easier." Leveling as it is now happens so fast that the only way to make it more challenging is to level multiple classes.

4) This will not change. From what Kainzo has said we know that he plans to give each class a unique set of base attributes (but attributes that resemble the current system at level 65). Overall from my point of view it makes balancing more difficult and tedious. Instead of working with flat base amounts we need to work with a balanced mix of scaling and base numbers. It works well in some cases but often enough it over complicates things

We are taking away the flexibility that attributes bring to the balance team.

5) Of course I can't read Kainzo's thoughts so I do not know for sure, but I can give my opinion. The community is dying, and plenty of people have voiced their opinions that they want to make things more base/simple. Kainzo has taken steps to begin to 'cater' to this large group of people and this is one of them.

Bastion was thriving. If we want to go back to simplicity, then go back to what was working in Bastion. Bring back the life's blood of PVP. Bring back the value of raiding, arenas, massive-scale battles, flair and fireworks, and boss mobs. Attributes as they stand aren't sucking away the life's blood of PVP; if anything, they enhance the customization of PVP so that discussion of certain builds remains alive on the forums and players can toy and tweak with unique builds.

Some people like attributes and some people don't. Others simply think it is a nuisance and a pain to deal with (For example, me!). Since one build is normally known as the most effective people will not really stray too far from it. Because there is that one best build for each class you can't have unique attributes without getting shit on in PvP. It is not a lot of work for experienced players to handle their attributes but it is very complicated for new players. I don't know if you have noticed but peaking at 40 people during a weekend is not desirable. People come on HeroCraft play for a day and end up leaving due to many factors (one of them being how complicated everything is)

Attributes are *not* the cause of players not being on Herocraft. To blame attributes for this is simply a fallacy. The game is no more complicated that it was two years ago. The wiki provides a thorough guide to the HC server and how it works. There are guides and mentors and people willing to answer questions from those who need assistance or clarification.

What I am saying at its core is that there are SO many other things that need help in bring HC back up to a higher level of population that attributes should be very low on the prioritization list. Accordingly, I believe that it should be left alone for now and maybe a year down the road when the population is high enough that the cries of the masses request a change in attributes, it will be worth doing. For now, five people out of 40 to 60 that are on any time complaining about attributes really doesn't have much weight in my book. Maybe kainzo sees otherwise, but I'm just sharing my opinion on this matter.

-yav

 

[Egorh]

I am confused at why this "everyone else" aspect is important. Customization is the ability to allow a player to make their experience unique and try things out separate of what everyone else is doing.



What you says true about the effectiveness of spiking a state, but the point is that the current system allows the ability to do so. By standardizing attributes, players lose the ability to experiment and the flexibility of trying new builds that work for their situation and/or their party or town's needs.



There is no need to make leveling "easier." Leveling as it is now happens so fast that the only way to make it more challenging is to level multiple classes.



We are taking away the flexibility that attributes bring to the balance team.



Bastion was thriving. If we want to go back to simplicity, then go back to what was working in Bastion. Bring back the life's blood of PVP. Bring back the value of raiding, arenas, massive-scale battles, flair and fireworks, and boss mobs. Attributes as they stand aren't sucking away the life's blood of PVP; if anything, they enhance the customization of PVP so that discussion of certain builds remains alive on the forums and players can toy and tweak with unique builds.



Attributes are *not* the cause of players not being on Herocraft. To blame attributes for this is simply a fallacy. The game is no more complicated that it was two years ago. The wiki provides a thorough guide to the HC server and how it works. There are guides and mentors and people willing to answer questions from those who need assistance or clarification.

What I am saying at its core is that there are SO many other things that need help in bring HC back up to a higher level of population that attributes should be very low on the prioritization list. Accordingly, I believe that it should be left alone for now and maybe a year down the road when the population is high enough that the cries of the masses request a change in attributes, it will be worth doing. For now, five people out of 40 to 60 that are on any time complaining about attributes really doesn't have much weight in my book. Maybe kainzo sees otherwise, but I'm just sharing my opinion on this matter.

-yav

Customizability in most games will allow you to choose multiple routes that are equally effective, but have different strengths of course. With our attributes that is not the case, that one build that everyone's stats are close to is the best build to use. There are no other unique builds that are equal in 'strength' to the main build. If you decide to be unique you lower your chances of success in a fight.

By removing the ability to manually add your own attributes you remove the ability to customize but you also make it easier on new players, and takes away some opportunities to troll for the veteran players. Even by removing this aspect of attributes there will still be ways to customize your stats, it just will not have as large of an impact. Kainzo has plans for attributes on weapons, and armour that will enhance your stats. I also believe he plans on making enchanter the class that gives these weapons/armour bonuses.

The new system does not only help with levelling. It will also help in fights where the opponent is higher level. Kainzo has plans to make scaling per level reduced; I assume that this change will also incorporate increasing base #s to compensate

From what I've read and have understood this change will not ruin balance team's flexability. Skills will still scale, we will be able to reduce scaling or increase scaling as needed. And we will be able to change around a classes stats if need be.

Ever since attributes have came out people have complained and voiced their dislike for them (not everyone).

Compared to other things that would play a large factor in people coming back/more staying changing attributes can be a fairly quick and easy process; unlike the adventure map that is constantly being worked on and still has a large amount of work to be done

No it is not a fallacy to say that attributes are one of the premises that lead people to leave the server. I've talked to over 15 players that have listed attributes as one of their reasons for leaving. It is not the only reason, and it may not have been a major reason for some people but it was a reason none the less.

 

[Yavool]

@TrueCorruptor, two points I want to make regarding your argument:

First, short of having over 15 former players posting on here that the attribute system was so confusing and/or difficult that it was a contributing factor as to why they are not playing anymore, I can't accept your claim as anything other than hearsay. And, as you know, hearsay is irrelevant when it comes to making a valid argument.

Second, PVP and PVE are two completely different animals when it comes to character builds. I would never build my Necromancer (or any class) the way I build it on PVE if I was spending significant tiime on PVP. By taking away the flexibility of the attribute assignment system, the @Balance Team would be effectively biasing classes based on one framework, and disregarding the other. The PVE server is here to stay until otherwise noted, and those who play on Sanctuary and not on Aegis deserve to have equal say when it comes to what the "appropriate" attribute allocation should be for a given class. It would be a grave mistake to take that away, IMHO.

It's a bad idea. Leave it as it is, and focus on other *much* more important things so that when I'm on late at night PST there are more than 5 - 20 players on. Revamping attributes is not the solution to this dilemma.

-yav

 

[Egorh]

@TrueCorruptor, two points I want to make regarding your argument:

First, short of having over 15 former players posting on here that the attribute system was so confusing and/or difficult that it was a contributing factor as to why they are not playing anymore, I can't accept your claim as anything other than hearsay. And, as you know, hearsay is irrelevant when it comes to making a valid argument.

Second, PVP and PVE are two completely different animals when it comes to character builds. I would never build my Necromancer (or any class) the way I build it on PVE if I was spending significant tiime on PVP. By taking away the flexibility of the attribute assignment system, the [USERGROUP=38]@Balance Team[/USERGROUP] would be effectively biasing classes based on one framework, and disregarding the other. The PVE server is here to stay until otherwise noted, and those who play on Sanctuary and not on Aegis deserve to have equal say when it comes to what the "appropriate" attribute allocation should be for a given class. It would be a grave mistake to take that away, IMHO.

It's a bad idea. Leave it as it is, and focus on other *much* more important things so that when I'm on late at night PST there are more than 5 - 20 players on. Revamping attributes is not the solution to this dilemma.

-yav

I can't really argue your first point because I am not going to go find a post or go through pages of chat logs to find someone mentioning that attributes were the reason they are leaving. Just because there is no solid proof that it has happened does not mean that it is not an issue; which has been brought up multiple times in the past.

This isn't the thread to argue PvP vs PvE so I will keep this brief. As long as you don't put large amounts of points into stats that do not correspond well with your current class all viable builds will level the same, or very similar. All of the builds I use in PvP are just as effective while killing mobs; the only difference is the order I apply my stats but that will not be a problem if you have all your stats off the bat.

It may not have a large impact on the player base but it is a step in the right direction. There have been cries to make things more simple again, and to resemble some things in Bastion. This change does that but still allows for scaling. Balance team will still be able to change the scaling on skills, and players can still get items that will increase their attributes (allowing some customizability but more limited - and less influential)