Rule Change: "User has been warned"

[Yavool]

@Rules Council

Okay, I am truly tired of having my areas griefied. I enjoy building areas throughout the map (for redstone chest areas at graveyards, etc.) and simply cannot keep up with the amount of griefing that is occurring. When I make my /pe griefing reports (about a half dozen or more a week), often I simply get "User has been warned." Sometimes the area is rolled back, sometimes it is not. When it is rolled back, sometimes it isn't completely restored to its original state despite the good faith effort to do so. When it is not rolled back, I am out the resources and time to rebuild the area so that it may resemble in some what what it once did pre-destrucion.

It is my believe that this griefing must stop, and it must happen from the top-down through policy reform and declaration to the HC community.

I would like Herocraft to implement a more strict first-offense policy. When a person registered on HC, they are required to read the rules. The rules expressly state "no griefing." That is "warning" enough.

• I propose that *any* griefing (excepted on a case-by-case basis for exigent circumstances) be served with a minimum 1 day ban, and that subsequent grief by the same player scales quickly to more severe punishments.

• I also propose that malicious destruction of a another person's property (as shown by logs, and/or the amount of damage done) be met with a much more strict first-time ban, including weeks/months/years/or permaban.

• Finally, I would like the @Moderators & @Admins to please come together and formulate a reliable & consistent method of handling griefing so that a HC member does not have to hope and pray for one mod/admin and dread getting another when submitting a griefing /pe.

By creating this more strict policy; I believe this will reduce the amount of time that the mods and admins will need to spend handling griefing petitions, as those people will have more "time off" to think about and remedy their erroneous ways.

Thank you,

-yav

 

[RagingDragon5]

i agree with the one day ban. No griefing is a pretty common rule for a lot of minecraft servers.

 

[LightningCape]

• I propose that *any* griefing (excepted on a case-by-case basis for exigent circumstances) be served with a minimum 1 day ban, and that subsequent grief by the same player scales quickly to more severe punishments.

Would be more consistent than hoping they're online or that they check their forum account to warn. I like it

Having bans go to months/years just pushes the ban into the land of arbitrary numbers. 'Tis a silly place.

• Finally, I would like the [USERGROUP=12][USERGROUP=12][USERGROUP=12]@Moderators[/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP] & [USERGROUP=9][USERGROUP=9][USERGROUP=9]@Admins[/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP] to please come together and formulate a reliable & consistent method of handling griefing so that a HC member does not have to hope and pray for one mod/admin and dread getting another when submitting a griefing /pe.

Maybe mods could get the power to do rollbacks. More mods than admins around usually.

 

[Yavool]

Having bans go to months/years just pushes the ban into the land of arbitrary numbers. 'Tis a silly place.

I see what you are saying. That being said, taking even a cursory look at the appeals section will reveal that from time to time there are cases where people want to come back months and/or years from when their original ban happened. Given the age of HC's general population, there is always a chance that time and life experience will invoke maturity and change. I don't want to deter people from having a chance to rehabilitate; some people just take longer than others to do so, and thus the longer bans can be justified.

In the too-common world of impulse, immediate gratification, and "feel-act-think" behavior (instead of "think-act-feel"), a good lengthy punishment will deter those types of toxic players from coming back, but still give those who really truly are remorseful for their actions and miss Herocraft time to think about what they had lost or given up by their actions, and do better when they are welcomed back.

-yav

 

[Kainzo]

Maybe the issue is that we're approaching this entire thing wrong. GriefPrevention is a plugin that pretty much "locks" everything that you place so that other scant grief it. Perhaps our protection system of "oh you can break it but dont worry its illegal to grief!" is flawed.

@cindy_k uses a similar system... we can make it that the users placed blocks will fade from protection if they are offline for X days

@Yavool the primary issue is that there's an endless flow of new players and a certain (high) percentage of them either dont read the rules, grief mindlessly or just dont understand the concepts.

 

[TsiJiang]

@Kainzo I agree completely but putting in place a system of grief prevention creates a possibility of players creating and using player traps, causing players to needs removal from said traps and unnecessary extra duties for moderators and/or admins.

the primary issue is that there's an endless flow of new players and a certain (high) percentage of them either dont read the rules, grief mindlessly or just dont understand the concepts.

I mayhap suggest we essential promote a tutorial for new players dedicated to beating the message of anti-griefing into their thick skulls through repetition. Not the popular choice but not exactly NOT effective.

 

[Eneokun]

I mayhap suggest we essential promote a tutorial for new players dedicated to beating the message of anti-griefing into their thick skulls through repetition. Not the popular choice but not exactly NOT effective.

It's not possible to create such a tutorial. Anything that is created with the intention to teach people how to play is being ignored by over the half of newcomers, I just dare to say that. Look at the current situation and tell me that every newbie reads the rules, uses the WelcomeBook and does the full tutorial without rushing through it. Kainzo knows that too:

the primary issue is that there's an endless flow of new players and a certain (high) percentage of them either dont read the rules, grief mindlessly or just dont understand the concepts.

It is pointless to teach someone obstinate who does not want to be taught in any way. Us humans have a forward way of thinking when it comes to that. The most younger players are ignorant when it comes to this subject, and I know that I'll be flamed for pointing this out, but that's the way it is.

we can make it that the users placed blocks will fade from protection if they are offline for X days

A possible solution. No one can expect every player to respect any rule in any game at a time. If you prevent them from breaking the rules, by eliminating the consequences for both sides, you have nothing to worry. Please keep in mind that this solution would be required to blend into the personal region system (it shouldn't make personal regions entirely pointless). It would indeed take a burden off of the staff's shoulders when it comes to the petition management, but it should be worked out cautiously, since too much protection would be exploited either way.

 

[TsiJiang]

It's not possible to create such a tutorial. Anything that is created with the intention to teach people how to play is being ignored by over the half of newcomers, I just dare to say that. Look at the current situation and tell me that every newbie reads the rules, uses the WelcomeBook and does the full tutorial without rushing through it.

I've seen such a system implemented on a Pixelmon server. It essentially consisted of a question and answer section for rules and options were posted above a set of doors with only one correct answer door ;where as the other doors essentially teleported the player back to the beginning where the rules were posted. Like i said, it's not the popular choice.

You are right though people do rush through most tutorials but a system that actually challenges their knowledge of the rules before letting them tackle the server proper would at least make them pay attention to the rules for the duration of the tutorial in order to access the server.

 

[Yavool]

Maybe the issue is that we're approaching this entire thing wrong. GriefPrevention is a plugin that pretty much "locks" everything that you place so that other scant grief it. Perhaps our protection system of "oh you can break it but dont worry its illegal to grief!" is flawed.

@cindy_k uses a similar system... we can make it that the users placed blocks will fade from protection if they are offline for X days

@Yavool the primary issue is that there's an endless flow of new players and a certain (high) percentage of them either dont read the rules, grief mindlessly or just dont understand the concepts.

With all due respect, I wonder if this is a topic that needs a level of abstraction to address, meaning that it would be important to pull our sights back and look at the forest from an areal view to see really what is wanted for Herocraft.

As much as I like the idea of the no-griefing plugin, I personally see this at odds with one of the main issues that HC is having to address: PVP/Raiding. When everyone was given an 11x11x11 residence simply by being whitelisted, there was an uproar. There has been a push to make towns seigeable. Block breaking is essential to these, and by making the blocks of active people ungriefable, then HC is further alienating ourselves from its core patrons.

I also agree that it is likely that few people read the rules as thorough as recommended. With this being said, I don't believe that by making this assumption we are helping our cause any by conceding that griefing will always occur. Rather, the questions are: how much griefing do we wish to tolerate and what do we do to bring it to that tolerable level?

There are numerous ways that HC can communicate the distinction between "no griefing" and "stealing is allowed": emails, tutorials, in-game signs, webpage announcements, and chat channel reminders. Beyond that, it has long been proven in all forms of punishment theory that the harsher the punishment, the less the behavior happens. If the United States was to impose the death sentence for selling cocaine, there would be a lot less cocaine sellers simply because the cost would be too high. This is where my proposal stems from: if Herocraft announces boldly that "griefing will be met with a ban at the minimum, and is grounds for a permaban," this will per se deter people from making that choice. Yes, we are going to have newcomers whose main goal is to grief, and yes it is HCs duty to its community to get those people out of the player pool as soon as possible, and the proposals I have stated do this through the "maliciousness" provision.

These rule proposals would in the long run cause less work for the admins and mods, as those who would grief will be out of the system for longer periods of time. The main thrust would need to come from the admins who are in charge of communicating these rules. In the past, when @Xanipher has made announcements, a lot of people listen. The same can be said when @Kainzo states something for the entire community to hear. But the most important communication would need to be to newcomers. I suggest that the "no griefing or ban" provision be placed in bold letters first and foremost multiple times in early communication with new players, along with a full definition of what griefing is so that people can understand exactly what is not allowed.

We have made great strides to redefine the rules regarding griefing, but without the teeth of enforcement to back it up, "user has been warned" is a hollow threat that deters nothing. Please consider this an integral part of the satisfaction of playing on Herocraft: the knowledge that if someone builds, they will be backed by the admins and mods to have that building protected through appropriate punishment to those who would destroy their creation.

-yav

 

[Kainzo]

A strictly enforced ban system for the breaking of a single glass pane - just seems a bit far to me. I have always been onboard with plugins driving players instead of blanket rules without mechanic enforcement.

If there's a plugin that will do what we want, I aim to get that plugin and add it to the server. Day to life for everyone would be easier.

@Yavool, I can agree about the direction and general feel of Herocraft, we need to keep that in mind for sure. The larger concerns are player retention at the moment, from an overall perspective and right now, we have 80% of new players leaving before they even have the chance to grief (or get out of the 2 minute tutorial)

This is a rules council, guided by the admins and upper staff - I'm okay with adjusting rules here that everyone can agree on.

 

[Kainzo]

I've seen such a system implemented on a Pixelmon server. It essentially consisted of a question and answer section for rules and options were posted above a set of doors with only one correct answer door ;where as the other doors essentially teleported the player back to the beginning where the rules were posted. Like i said, it's not the popular choice.

You are right though people do rush through most tutorials but a system that actually challenges their knowledge of the rules before letting them tackle the server proper would at least make them pay attention to the rules for the duration of the tutorial in order to access the server.

this type of thing is probably for the best, who wants to make it?

 

[devotedworker]

this type of thing is probably for the best, who wants to make it?

*Raises Hand* Can I?

 

[RagingDragon5]

@Kainzo is it possible to make a plugin where any destroyed player placed blocks will respawn after 5 min or so?

 

[devotedworker]

@Kainzo is it possible to make a plugin where any destroyed player placed blocks will respawn after 5 min or so?

We have something similiar with TNT currently, so it is theoretically possible I think...

 

[what777]

Some stupid bastard stole all my bookshelves I made available to the public.

 

[leftovers5]

I'm not convinced that small scale grief is worth a 1 day ban. A verbal warning for sure.

This is because the 1 day ban would deter the player from ever trying to reconnect to the server. You may argue that griefers are unsavory to begin with in a player base, but people can and do learn. What incentive does a new player have to return to the server when they've been banned for something they may not even remember they did (ex: breaking a glass pane)?

 

[sysdrum]

Well I build underground and I had complete removal of about 90 to 120 blocks removed and not replaced. I guess looking for hidden chests. It took me 4 hours to redo all of it again. I had a enchanting table removed from a room that was hidden inside a building inside another building with 18 blocks in all directions. Face palm. At this point I am like what the crap. I have been playing here for over 2 years and have gotten used to it. But i should not have to. The rules are don't grief. Destroying buildings no matter where they are located is uncalled for. isn't removing enchanting tables griefing? It is not in a chest.

 

[Yavool]

Well I build underground and I had complete removal of about 90 to 120 blocks removed and not replaced. I guess looking for hidden chests. It took me 4 hours to redo all of it again. I had a enchanting table removed from a room that was hidden inside a building inside another building with 18 blocks in all directions. Face palm. At this point I am like what the crap. I have been playing here for over 2 years and have gotten used to it. But i should not have to. The rules are don't grief. Destroying buildings no matter where they are located is uncalled for. isn't removing enchanting tables griefing? It is not in a chest.

Yes, that is considered griefing, @sysdrum.