Rogue Patch

[Egorh]

There has not been a whole lot of talk about Rogue changes:

Ninja

• Most of us have agreed that Ninja needs a rework. We need @Kainzo 's approval though.
• There was a couple ideas thrown around but nothing very solid
• My rework:
  Spoiler

  Pros
  

  • If you get any sneak backstabs off on a squishy class they can say good bye to their health
  • Strong against most casters/healers due to: EscapeArtist, Kick, Smoke, Blind
  • Very strong mobility

  Cons
  

  • No teamfight presence: No AOE skills, Smoke is easily dealt with due to large amount of AOEs, the damage output if very situational (it is unlikely that you will be able to get to their backline's back)
  • Very situational damage: The majority of Ninja's high damage is from Backstab but there isn't 'enough' to get off the amount of backstabs needed (unless you successfully sneak up on someone)
  • Gets demolished by Warriors and Tanky classes
  • Not stealthy enough
  • Reagents: To fight at your full potential you need to carry a lot of different things on you (6 different things-not including a primary weapon)
    • Gunpowder (Smoke and Blitz)
    • String (GrapplingHook and Garrote)
    • Bow
    • Arrows
    • Compass (Deathmark)
    • Flint (Shurikens)

  Overall my goal with this rework is to make the class more 'appealing' and useful in more than 1 or 2 scenarios. Some of the ideas are mine, but other skills/ideas come from other people. And of course take away some
  
  Remove
  

  • Garrote
  • GrapplingHook
  • Bow and Arrow use
  • Blind
  • Smoke
  • Current Fade

  Change
  

  • Blitz
  • Eviscerate
  • EscapeArtist

  New
  

  • SmokeBomb
  • Kasarigama
  • New Fade (same name but new skill)

  
  Remove
  
  Garrote
  

  • A very useless skill, in my time as Ninja I have only used this skill once and my goal was trolling
  • Just adds on to the amount of reagents Ninja needs

  GrapplingHook
  

  • Ninja has enough mobility with only Backflip
  • Makes room for a more unique skill
  • Another reagent needed

  Bow and Arrow Usage
  

  • Needed for GrapplingHook
  • More stuff to carry on you
  • Makes room for more 'uniqueness'

  Smoke, Fade, and Blind
  

  • Removing allows for a better 'stealth' for Ninja
  • Useful in 1v1s but practically unnoticeable in group fights

  
  Change
  
  
  Blitz
  

  • Ninja has very little to deal with heavily armored targets (other than eviscerate and kiting with a lot of shurikens) so it was a question of how to make Ninja do a bit better against Warriors but not increase their chances against casters even more. It could scale with armor or health but I choose to use armor
  • Increase range by 3 blocks
  • Cut base damage in half (150 / 2 = 75)
  • Add 1.5 damage per armor weight (15 damage per 10 armor weight)
    • Average caster has about 40 armor weight: 75 + 1.5(40) = 135. It is doing less damage to casters/lightly armored targets
    • 70 armor weight: 75 + 1.5(70) = 180. More damage against heavily armored targets

  EscapeArtist
  

  • Since this skill does not work on the most threatening CCs (stuns and piggifys) it does not deserve a 2 min cooldown
  • Lower cooldown to 1 min (from 2 min)

  Eviscerate
  

  • Ninja's damage can be very overwhelming is they catch you off guard and this change is meant to remove some of that damage from the main burst
  • 25% of the damage will be dealt over the duration of 5s as physical damage (not piercing)

  
  New
  
  SmokeBomb
  

  • Since Ninja barely has any prescence in a group fight the only incentive to actually have one if you are more serious PvPers is to hunt people down. An AOE blind and nausea is a viable option to choose in an organized group fight/tournament
  • Cost: 300 stamina, 50 mana
  • Warmup: 1s
  • Cooldown: 35s
  • You throw a smoke bomb at your feet blinding enemies within 7 blocks for 2.5s (+0.05s per point of charisma). Anyone hit is also disoriented (nausea) for 10s after the blind.

  Kasarigama
  

  • The main problem I run into while chasing people is that even though you have backflip you can only get 1 or 2 hits in before you knock them away again. This skill is mean't to assist in chasing/fighting with the removal of: Bows, arrows, and grapplinghook
  • Cost: 300 stamina
  • Cooldown: 20s
  • You throw a shuriken at your target. If it lands they are rooted 1s (+0.075 per point of charisma). After the root's duration is over (not when the root is broken by a mob or player) it pulls the target towards you.

  Fade
  

  • A better way to go about making Ninja 'Stealthy'. Although you can keep invisible for a long(ish) time Ninja's pathetic mana regeneration will help with limiting what you can do.
  • Cost: 100 stamina, 75 mana
    • When activated: 20 mana per second (-1 mana per 5 intellect)
  • Warmup: 2s
  • Cooldown: 45s
  • You hide your presence going invisible. While invisible you lose 20 mana per second and have Slow II. Any unstealthy (taking damage, dealing damage, most skill. Moving will not break stealth) will cause you to reappear

Ranger

• Reduce base armor to 30
• Reduce base health by 30 (630 -> 600)
• Reduce melee axe damage by 10 (Diamond axe: 64 -> 54)

Bard

• Overall I think this class is in a good spot. It does very well in group fights and decently solo.

Runeblade

• Does massive amounts of damage in 1v1s and can demolish one person very fast, but it is very useless in group fights
• Replace one of it's damage or utility skills with an AOE

Berserker

• Revert the changes from the previous patch
• Change lunge to scale with agility

Disciple

• Undo armor nerf (unsure what exactly caused it)
  • Could raise the base by 3.75 to make up for it
  • OR undo what ever change caused this
• Meditate
  • Reduce cooldown on meditate by 15s (90s -> 75s)
  • Increase mana gain on meditate by 20% (50% -> 70%)

[USERGROUP=38][USERGROUP=38][USERGROUP=38][USERGROUP=38]@Balance Team[/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP]

 

[malikdanab]

Bard:

• I think its good overall, but maybe normalize the "song" buff skills

Runeblade:

• IMO there really isn't any AOE skill that fits for runeblade. To make it more viable in team fights I would decrease its mana costs so it can actually do something after it fights 1 person.

Berserker:

• Most of what i did last patch was a change not a direct buff. That said, what I would do:
  • Decrease Damage increase from BerserkerRage from 40% to 30%-35%
  • Though not necessary IMO (Considering that its the worst movement skill out of jump, backflip, and flying kick.) I don't mind Lunge scaling on AGI.

 

[Egorh]

Bard:

• I think its good overall, but maybe normalize the "song" buff skills

Runeblade:

• IMO there really isn't any AOE skill that fits for runeblade. To make it more viable in team fights I would decrease its mana costs so it can actually do something after it fights 1 person.

Berserker:

• Most of what i did last patch was a change not a direct buff. That said, what I would do:
  • Decrease Damage increase from BerserkerRage from 40% to 30%-35%
  • Though not necessary IMO (Considering that its the worst movement skill out of jump, backflip, and flying kick.) I don't mind Lunge scaling on AGI.

I do not think we should simply reduce the mana costs of some skills on Runeblade. It will help in teamfights but it will also help a lot in 1v1s
An idea for an AOE

• Poison Breath -- Same damage as toxic rune but it acts similar to bonespear/chaotic vision
• Much more mana than toxic rune

Berserker

• I am okay with either reverting the old changes or reducing the damage increase on BerserkerRage
• The lunge change may not be necessary but I believe that you should not be able to compliment everyone of your skills with one stat

 

[malikdanab]

I do not think we should simply reduce the mana costs of some skills on Runeblade. It will help in teamfights but it will also help a lot in 1v1s
An idea for an AOE

• Poison Breath -- Same damage as toxic rune but it acts similar to bonespear/chaotic vision
• Much more mana than toxic rune

Berserker

• I am okay with either reverting the old changes or reducing the damage increase on BerserkerRage
• The lunge change may not be necessary but I believe that you should not be able to compliment everyone of your skills with one stat

I like keeping the changes because my main gripe is that Berserker was starting off weaker than Paladin/DK.

For runeblade, the reason that its so great in 1v1s is that it can preset 3 runes before hand. Without that, runeblade has a very hard time to out damage/out sustain most classes. What ends up happening as a runeblade is that you run out of mana and it literally takes 15+ seconds to use a skill. I don't think its good to remove runeblade skills when it already has one the smaller skill sets.
Adding another skill won't really improve its 1v1 potential, because a runeblade is rarely waiting for CDs and is always rotating through runes.

 

[Egorh]

I like keeping the changes because my main gripe is that Berserker was starting off weaker than Paladin/DK.

For runeblade, the reason that its so great in 1v1s is that it can preset 3 runes before hand. Without that, runeblade has a very hard time to out damage/out sustain most classes. What ends up happening as a runeblade is that you run out of mana and it literally takes 15+ seconds to use a skill. I don't think its good to remove runeblade skills when it already has one the smaller skill sets.
Adding another skill won't really improve its 1v1 potential, because a runeblade is rarely waiting for CDs and is always rotating through runes.

Ok so I guess that we agree that it would be good to add an AOE skill that does not play a role in 1v1s.

 

[Irishman81]

So thoughts on doing this today? @Kainzo @Balance Team

 

[peterpunx]

If you are looking for an AOE for runeblade, what about Runeword rework, 10% more magic damage on everyone 5 (+0.1int) blocks during 10sec.
CD=1min

Or a healing reduction on enemy

 

[malikdanab]

If ya wanted to kill 2 birds with one stone:

AOE mana drain

 

[Egorh]

Added some changes for Disciple

 

[MalaWolf]

Bumping this with some changes/recommendations I have for both Bard and Runeblade (two classes I have played heavily this map)

Bard:

At max level bard is fine, I wouldn't recommend any changes to it's numbers it performs decent in groups and solo.
However, I would suggest fixing the levels that it gains skills, because it seems random. Healing Chorus at 59, Song of Respiration at 37. I would suggest giving bard a skill, on roughly every 5 levels. Rounding skills up and down to reach the nearest bracket of 5.

Warsong 5 | Meloid Binding 15 | Accelerando 20 | Kick 25 | Manasong 30 | Song of Resperation 35 | Boastful Bellow 40
Battle song 50 | Healing Chorus 60 | Voidsong 65 |

This is a small change, but players would appreciate it.
​

Runeblade:

Runeblade in my opinion is in a very good spot, however I feel there are a few misconceptions about the class.

Runeblade does not have very big mana issues, It has some in very extreme cases, (10 minute fights or continued use of flicker + blink)
I would not recommend that any skills have lower mana costs on any of it's skills except blink. (will explain further)

Secondly, Runeblade has a role in teamfights, while it allows for misplay, a good runeblade will join a fight late, take targets out with it's high boost and then blink away. It is also very good at sticking on targets using flicker and blink, and using void runes effectively. I would recommend maybe a range buff to blink, to allow runeblades to escape more successfully, another alternative is to lower the cooldown, allowing you to use it more often in fights, giving more escape and chase potential, I feel the mana cost would need to be lowered because it does cost a fair bit.

Finally, Ice Rune as a skill needs a look at. It is not good in the current state and it's not something that a good rune-blade will use. I'd suggest either up the utility, or up the damage. But we don't want to make it to good, because runeblade is already a good class.

For numbers from my suggestion I would suggest. (Take one of my two options for blink + my Ice Rune suggestion)

• Buff Blink's range from 4 + (0.1 per Int) to 7 (0.1 per Int) or par with Wizard
• Lower Blink's cooldown from 10 seconds to 6 seconds, mana cost from 75 to 45 and stamina cost from 275 to 165
• Buff Ice Runes damage from 30 + (0.875) to 40 + (0.875)

this will make people choose between runes more, as Ice Rune will have enough damage to be usable and bring it on par with rune-blades other skills.​

​

 

[Jrr_]

Ice run is used more for a slow not the damage and the blink I don't feel needs to be changed, it defiantly should not have the same size blink as wizard.

 

[MalaWolf]

I'd agree with Blink, it doesn't need buffs but I feel they will help rune-blade in team fights without increasing it's 1v1 potential.

With Ice Rune, the reason why it's not used/not popular is because it does to low damage, and to low of utility to be worth it against other runes. Meaning we can either up the damage, or up the slow. I went with damage.

 

[Egorh]

Runeblade is in a decent spot right now. It is not weak and it is not too strong. I do believe it needs some changes but not buffs like @MalaWolf has suggested.

If you want a good blink then you need to make the skill more costly/increase cooldown, or compensate else where.

Instead of giving Ice Rune more damage I'd rather increase the slow duration by a few seconds; Runeblade already has enough damage output without this small damage buff

 

[malikdanab]

Give runeblade kick

 

[MalaWolf]

Ninja
Needs a rework - but for the sake of speed, what are some number changes we can make to help it???

Ranger

• Reduce base armor to 30
• Reduce base health by 30 (630 -> 600)
• Reduce melee axe damage by 10 (Diamond axe: 64 -> 54)

Bard

• Overall I think this class is in a good spot. It does very well in group fights and decently solo.

Runeblade

• In a great spot solo, and can perform okay in group fights. Would not recommend any changes.

-----

Non-Rouges

Berserker

• Revert the changes from the previous patch
• Change lunge to scale with agility

Disciple

• Base equipment 23.75 up from 20
• Forcepush base dmg 45 up from 35
• Meditate CD 76 down from 90
• Meditate mana replenish 60% up from 50%

Can we get an agreement on this? [USERGROUP=38][USERGROUP=38]@Balance Team[/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP]

And then pushed through to live? @mung3r @Kainzo

 

[Jrr_]

Looks good

 

[Egorh]

Ninja
Needs a rework - but for the sake of speed, what are some number changes we can make to help it???

Ranger

• Reduce base armor to 30
• Reduce base health by 30 (630 -> 600)
• Reduce melee axe damage by 10 (Diamond axe: 64 -> 54)

Bard

• Overall I think this class is in a good spot. It does very well in group fights and decently solo.

Runeblade

• In a great spot solo, and can perform okay in group fights. Would not recommend any changes.

-----

Non-Rouges

Berserker

• Revert the changes from the previous patch
• Change lunge to scale with agility

Disciple

• Base equipment 23.75 up from 20
• Forcepush base dmg 45 up from 35
• Meditate CD 76 down from 90
• Meditate mana replenish 60% up from 50%

DreadKnight

• Fix Darkscythe (and then tone down the damage, maybe 10 + 0.5 per int? doing 25 bonus damage at 30 int)

Can we get an agreement on this? [USERGROUP=38][USERGROUP=38]@Balance Team[/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP]

And then pushed through to live? @mung3r @Kainzo

That DarkScyth is still way too strong in my opinion. An extra 25 bonus damage a hit is insane. I suggest reducing the scaling to 0.1 per int. The class already does fine in melee vs melee fights (where this skill would be most useful) and curse already heavily assists this; no need to allow the class to shit on every melee class.

 

[MalaWolf]

5 + (0.25) on Dark Scythe, That's 12.5 bonus damage per hit.

The problem is in the skill itself, it adds nothing to the class and any numbers are insane on a flat damage increase.
However, in order to get it done quickly, lets the numbers that we can all agree on fast.

 

[Kainzo]

Ninja
Needs a rework - but for the sake of speed, what are some number changes we can make to help it???

Ranger

• Reduce base armor to 30
• Reduce base health by 30 (630 -> 600)
• Reduce melee axe damage by 10 (Diamond axe: 64 -> 54)

Bard

• Overall I think this class is in a good spot. It does very well in group fights and decently solo.

Runeblade

• In a great spot solo, and can perform okay in group fights. Would not recommend any changes.

-----

Non-Rouges

Berserker

• Revert the changes from the previous patch
• Change lunge to scale with agility

Disciple

• Base equipment 23.75 up from 20
• Forcepush base dmg 45 up from 35
• Meditate CD 76 down from 90
• Meditate mana replenish 60% up from 50%

DreadKnight

• Fix Darkscythe (and then tone down the damage, maybe 10 + 0.5 per int? doing 25 bonus damage at 30 int)

Can we get an agreement on this? [USERGROUP=38][USERGROUP=38]@Balance Team[/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP]

And then pushed through to live? @mung3r @Kainzo

We're having issues with pushing the content to the configs, I can make them on the server but we're going to need to rebase the files.

Also - a lot of these "base" stats are wrong since the latest patch. Check them out on Visisons.

 

[MalaWolf]

Bumping this - following the meeting