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Suggestion Paladin not fitting role

Joined
May 4, 2012
Likes
170
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
#1
There is a OLD class roles post on the forums. Paladin is supposed to be tank with light heals. In the class roles it is mentioned to have a 2/10 offensive rating. Currently, paladin does way more damage than it should. It's base left click is too high. It's heals are too strong. It needs the have like 1300+ HP with light heals and low damage. It should be absorbing damage and peeling with little chance of getting all the kills in a fight. This is just one of the issues I'm seeing in class rolls. But I think it is the biggest. Pally should be hard to kill, and it should be hard for a pally to kill. Simple.

Reduce damage.
Reduce heals.
Increase HP.
Increase utility.
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Likes
261
#3
Can we talk about why Paladin has Rally? I don't know when it happened, but some smart guy decided to give 90% of the classes a mobility skill while leaving the ones without one pretty lackluster.

Why does Paladin have such high damage?
Why does Paladin have mobility?
Why does LayHands still not drain all mana?

It feels like Dragoon from 4 years ago all over again, but not quite as cancerous. There shouldn't be a class that checks all the boxes, but here we are. Also, if a Beguiler buffs a Paladin, enjoy your 3 second DivineStun. Fuck me.
 
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Likes
45
Location
Florida
#4
All of these drastic changes happened over the course of the beta prep and beta. The issue is, there wasn't nearly enough time to test the classes, as people had to level, and there wasn't enough players to get a good sample anyways. We should take a hard look at the way classes interact now, as some just do too much.
 
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Likes
298
#5
All of these drastic changes happened over the course of the beta prep and beta. The issue is, there wasn't nearly enough time to test the classes, as people had to level, and there wasn't enough players to get a good sample anyways. We should take a hard look at the way classes interact now, as some just do too much.
Well that's not completely true, current paladin has had the same skill set for years now, and used to be a lot worse than it is now. I think most of the problems are coming from taunt, absolution, and a little too much damage. Changes are definitely needed, but it's not like paladin has recently drastically changed, just look at some videos of paladin pvping 2 even 3 years ago.

Also rally is garbage and I didnt even have it bound when I played paladin lol
 
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Likes
45
Location
Florida
#6
Well that's not completely true, current paladin has had the same skill set for years now, and used to be a lot worse than it is now. I think most of the problems are coming from taunt, absolution, and a little too much damage. Changes are definitely needed, but it's not like paladin has recently drastically changed, just look at some videos of paladin pvping 2 even 3 years ago.

Also rally is garbage and I didnt even have it bound when I played paladin lol
Before we changed the skills back to what they were before, Paladin was a broken mess that hardly anyone would touch. It was changed after people actually played it and complaints came rolling in, which should have happened during the beta.
 
Joined
May 4, 2012
Likes
170
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
#8
Let's quickly talk about the stun. Not only does paladin have decent dps. It has a god stun. As most of you know, stuns have no counter. You cannot use skills, you cannot left click, and obviously you cannot move. Why does a defensive class have such a long stun? Who honestly knows. There are a couple of ways to resolve this.
One, make the stun last .5-.75 seconds. It should be used to help peel a melee class off your casters and healers. It should be used to help someone in your party put some distance between them and the enemy.
Two, have it apply invuln to target. Again, should be a defensive/peel skill. I wouldn't mind a longer stun if I couldn't be gang raped with no option but to take it, if I was invulnerable. Again, use it to take someone out of the fight momentarily.

Let's move to healing. Paladin have far to much healing as of now. Absolution is on too short of a CD. It also heals far too much. Paladin is a light healing class. With that being said, as a tanky light heal class, we wrap back around to too much dps.

Armor... is broken. It does not provide the mitigation it used to. Maybe we should look into a way to resolve that. Idk. But, the fact that a paladin can still out heal a wizards damage is insane. Regardless of armor.

To fix, drastically reduce dps. Reduce heals and increase cd. Increase HP. Fix stun.
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Likes
261
#9
Heals in general are broken. I lost to a 30 Druid as a 60 Beguiler in an arena yesterday. Hit all of my Fireballs/Plaguebombs/Pulses and used 1 Chronosphere for full damage (129) until I ran out of mana. At the point I ran out of mana I had him at 2 hearts and I had 9. Once I was out of mana I would just kite because I was useless at this point and he was full HP in no time thanks to how broken heals are, especially Soothe.

But yeah, all around Paladin is AIDS.
 
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Likes
45
Location
Florida
#10
Heals in general are broken. I lost to a 30 Druid as a 60 Beguiler in an arena yesterday. Hit all of my Fireballs/Plaguebombs/Pulses and used 1 Chronosphere for full damage (129) until I ran out of mana. At the point I ran out of mana I had him at 2 hearts and I had 9. Once I was out of mana I would just kite because I was useless at this point and he was full HP in no time thanks to how broken heals are, especially Soothe.

But yeah, all around Paladin is AIDS.
Well to be fair, soothe is actually broken. It heals for the full amount on the caster.
 
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Likes
3
#11
all heals other than soothe have been fixed.


and no rad soothe doesnt heal the full amount on the caster it heals MORE THAN THAT [300hp heal]

it heals the proper amount on other players [i think it heals like 120hp] but on self it heals waayyyy too much lmao
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Likes
261
#12
all heals other than soothe have been fixed.


and no rad soothe doesnt heal the full amount on the caster it heals MORE THAN THAT [300hp heal]

it heals the proper amount on other players [i think it heals like 120hp] but on self it heals waayyyy too much lmao
Fantastic. On a what... 8 second cooldown? EZ game EZ life.
 

draconis99

Holy
Coder
Maximum Supporter X
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Likes
50
#13
In DG pally would tickle you to death. They hardly did any damage. They were literally tanks.

Check out a video of TC fighting a lone paladin. Hard to kill. They did little damage.

oh that brings back good memories.

While I agree that paladin does not feel in it's place as a defending knight and that it should be a defensive fighter, I don't think simple suggesting of number changes is the way to do it.

If we are to make the paladin a defensive knight with more utility than heals, then we must give the paladin advantageous mechanics and dynamics that he can create/uphold in order to help his team. Being a religious character by lore, tying in some faith/obedience to these mechanics would also be a huge boon to helping players fall into the state of "Play" much easier and create better game immersion. I personally feel that paladins would not be quick to offensively kill random people, but would be sure to seek vengeance and justice on those that violate a paladin's moral code. Not every class needs to be able to kill an opponent. In fact, most victories are not determined by who killed who, but by who survived the battle and held their ground proudly. I honestly don't think a paladin should be killing many people and that if players were to "get away", the paladin would forgive them and move on.

Other statistics that we need to keep in mind is that Minecraft and Herocraft are largely based on action-combat playstyle. This means that target spells that "lock on" with a single click and then function solely to that target with no skill or thought involved do not suit the combat situation. While having a lock-on playstyle for some classes would diversify the gaming personality range of the clientele base, I do not feel as though paladin should be a candidate for such mechanics. One problem that we do have in Minecraft is the speed, rapid movements, and ping rate between server and client make stream-casting difficult. This means that skills and mechanics should be dynamic and intuitive in their playstyle.

I would propose the following mechanics to the paladin class to make them feel more like paladins -
Holy Ground - The paladin consecrates x amount of area around her location. (The x-distance could increase with level or remain static)
• While standing on holy ground, damage taken is reduced for the paladin and her allies.
• While standing on holy ground, knockback from physical blows are reduced for the paladin and her allies. (skill knockbacks unaffected)
• While standing on holy ground, the paladin's shard of faith skill (passive) becomes active.
• While standing on holy ground, the paladin's shout of faith skill becomes active.
This creates a position for the paladin to hold. It makes the paladin defensive and only perform well defensively. Outside of this area, the paladin is not only unbuffed, but several skills are unavailable and inactive. Allies to the paladin must show faith and obedience in the paladin's words or be left without the paladin's protection. This creates a risk/reward dynamic for both the paladin's group and the offending group. Ways around this are to engage in range combat or remove the paladin from her circle of influence with skills.

Shard of Faith - While this skill is active (passive), when the paladin is either struck in combat, or strikes an enemy in combat, a glistening shard flies off to the near distance. This shard can be picked up by the paladin or her allies for minor healing.
This promotes a feeling of humility that is required in the paladin's healing rotation. It is dynamic and useful in an action combat style, but also means that greedy allies can rob the paladin and other allies of the healing. Each must take their turn grabbing the shards to maintain overall healing of the group, yet at a cost. Some shards may fall out of the Holy Ground. Some healing will require players to not be aiding in the combat because of the distance traveled. Some players may need to turn their backs to the enemy to gather healing shards, which will create lucrative opportunities for the enemies vicious combo attacks. There also lies the option for the enemies to steal the shards of faith to prevent the allies from healing. The shards could even be stored as inventory for a more dynamic skill possibility instead of healing outright. Details below.

Shout of Faith - When the paladin is standing on Holy Ground, she may activate this ability. The paladin and any of her allies standing on Holy Ground ...
A) will receive healing based on the number of Shards of Faith in their inventory (if that is something desired). Enemies standing on Holy Ground with shards of faith in their inventory will take damage or suffer a stacking debuff retrospectively. (shards outside the Holy Ground in the vicinity could also be destroyed for their lack of faith/obedience, or be removed from the enemy's inventory with no penalty)
B) will receive a set amount of healing and a bolster in buffs - albeit speed, further damage reduction, etc while enemies in Holy Ground will receive damage or a stacking debuff retrospectively.
Enemies caught in the paladin's Holy Ground when she uses Shout of Faith will find themselves with a debuff: Mark for Retribution.
This skill could have a casting timer to warn allies and enemies to either get in or stay out of Holy Ground before the cast finishes. This would be the replacement for absolution. This should be a rather large boon to the paladin and her allies as a reward for performing well, as well as a punishment for enemies choosing to engage the paladin in her territory and not pay attention to her casting.

Mark of Retribution - A debuff applied to enemies of the paladin. This debuff allows to paladin to use the skill (passive) Rebuke on the target.
• Mark of Retribution should have a quick fall-off timer.

Rebuke - When the paladin strikes an enemy with the Mark of Retribution debuff, the Mark of Retribution debuff fall-off timer is reset. On top of the reset of the debuff timer, the enemy now if affected by any combination of...
A) Reduced damage to the paladin's allies, and possibly even the paladin herself (only her allies to promote the enemy to attack the paladin directly, both the paladin and her allies to serve as a straight punishment for staying in range of the paladin)
B) Reduced move speed (the paladin is now seeking retribution against an enemy that clearly has defiled her Holy Ground and will persue that enemy until the debuff is removed or the enemy escapes the paladin's wrath. Luring the paladin outside of her Holy Ground creates another choice mechanic for the paladin herself as she would be forfeiting her buffs)

I have more, but no need to make a long post if none of this is wanted. Let me know what you think.
 
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