Suggestion [Ninja/Shadowblade,Vorpal] DPS to high?

Aright, So instead of just saying "Ninjas OP nerf pls" Like some uneducated fool, im going to drop some math to back up my claim
Now Vorpal Weapons and in and of themselfs... pretty strong to say the least, looking at the damage table across most class's we can see that Gold weapons do more base damage then Diamond Weapons(About 2 Extra on every class), which really isint much if anything to get upset about really. Combined with some higher tier Diamond weapons give you +8 damage, so a good Diamond weapon does about 6 more damage per attack then a gold one. Aright we got that out of the way...

So lets say Base attack speed without any modifiers is 1 attack per second(You can change this number and the math still holds up)


Dungeon dropped Swords get -60% Attack speed. so they attack at .4 Attacks Per second.
Vorpal Blades get +400% Attack speed, so they can make 4 Attacks per Second

So looking at what we have above, we can already see vorpal blades already attack around 10X Faster then any other sword.

Ninja DPS with a Diamond blade:= About 36.7(No Backstab)
(94*.4)
Vorpal Blade Blade DPS= 352
(88*4)
DPS Formula= Weapon Damage X Attacks per second, Feel free to stop me any time you see an error in my math

Aright now lets Calculate Backstab Damage, Which can be anywhere between +144% to +288%, we will do both just for fun

Diamond Blade Backstab,144%=135.36 Damage per second
Diamond Blade Backstab,288%= 270 Damage per second

Aright, so these are reasonable... now lets get to the Vorpal Weapons

Vorpal Blade,144%=506 Damage Per Second
Vorpal Blade,288%=1365.76 Damage per second


UHHHHH,well....wow...just....wow

From... Experiance in game i would say this math holds up, as i have seen and experianced Ninja's killing targets in 2-3 Seconds

From what i can see the problem is that Vorpal weapons were added w/o certain mechanics in mind and no one thought that when combined with certain skills that this kind of shit would happen, Perhaps its time to tone these down a little?

Gold weapons were adjusted to do less damage than their diamond counterparts now.
The benefit to gold is the swing speed.

If the class is actually doing more damage with gold please drop a bug report.

And Irish wants to look at Ninja anyway.

The math is pretty funny with this, I did some testing with @911FashionPolice and he wasn't able to replicate any of the numbers that you calculated. The damages over one second on diamond and gold swords were more nearer to 300-400 dps(with a backstab) non-backstab damage was looking more like 200 damage with both diamond and gold.

Your attack speeds are a bit off, and it affected how you calculated your damages. 4 attacks per second is literally impossible with the game mechanics no matter how fast you can click, or what the weapon speed is. Even if the weapon had a 1 million attack speed multiple and you had 15 CPS, you still would only be able to left click a target twice per second because of immunity frames. I also have yet to see a class that does more number damage on a gold tool over diamond, care to share any examples of that? For instance, I'm a max Reaver, and I do 40 extra damage with a diamond axe over gold.

I agree with a nerf on ninja, more specifically on the nerf to backstab multipliers, but your math here is a bit odd, wonky, and the damages don't add up to what's actually happening in-game.

joshtsai said:

The math is pretty funny with this, I did some testing with @911FashionPolice and he wasn't able to replicate any of the numbers that you calculated. The damages over one second on diamond and gold swords were more nearer to 300-400 dps(with a backstab) non-backstab damage was looking more like 200 damage with both diamond and gold.

Your attack speeds are a bit off, and it affected how you calculated your damages. 4 attacks per second is literally impossible with the game mechanics no matter how fast you can click, or what the weapon speed is. Even if the weapon had a 1 million attack speed multiple and you had 15 CPS, you still would only be able to left click a target twice per second because of immunity frames. I also have yet to see a class that does more number damage on a gold tool over diamond, care to share any examples of that? For instance, I'm a max Reaver, and I do 40 extra damage with a diamond axe over gold.

I agree with a nerf on ninja, more specifically on the nerf to backstab multipliers, but your math here is a bit odd, wonky, and the damages don't add up to what's actually happening in-game.

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Gold weapons used to deal more damage, but it was changed to give them a faster swing speed.

LordZelkova said:

Gold weapons used to deal more damage, but it was changed to give them a faster swing speed.

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Yep, but his post was after that change, so leaving aside the small number of classes that didn't get the change, classes have a big difference between diamond and gold damage now. I'm not going to ignore the fact that most people prefer gold for a variety of reasons, but its not correct to say that gold does more damage per second. There are other reasons why people would prefer gold to diamond weapons(diamond weapons are inconsistent in terms of damage output over long periods of time).

Math is not needed, it's an obvious catch. Vorpal blade does more than half the amount of diamond sword, except vorpal has no timer, if you spam click with vorpal on any class, you will see a significant increase in health drop on the enemy your hitting than with a diamond sword.

Correction, math will be needed to adjust to damage output, but I meant you don't need to do the math in order to see if Vorpal is more powerful than regular diamond, vorpal should be half the damage of diamond if not lower possibly.

jakeM56 said:

Math is not needed, it's an obvious catch. Vorpal blade does more than half the amount of diamond sword, except vorpal has no timer, if you spam click with vorpal on any class, you will see a significant increase in health drop on the enemy your hitting than with a diamond sword.

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Gold weapons do the damage they dealt pre-swing timers. If they too high, they can be toned down.

then maybe your right, possibly people aren't used to a change back to the original damage, they are used to lower damage output and act like "No swing timers" is some op legendary weapon.

jakeM56 said:

then maybe your right, possibly people aren't used to a change back to the original damage, they are used to lower damage output and act like "No swing timers" is some op legendary weapon.

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I don't know, my playtime with them was very limited. They didn't seem too amazing, but I WAS a caster, so.

I think people forgetting that we have inv timers, and that the gold weapons are a system people have been asking for since the timers came in, the gold weapons are as close to no timers as we can get short of actually removing them.

Yeah, maybe it needs to grow on people again, but vorpal dps can be insane.

jakeM56 said:

Yeah, maybe it needs to grow on people again, but vorpal dps can be insane.

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I think the worse offender(which probably is the class that Zidane references) ninja is outputting so much damage not due too vorpal weapons/gold weapons but rather backstab. @Irishman81 I noticed that the latest week of balance changes weren't put in, perhaps this week with some ninja changes?

Also its worth noting that diamond tools, specifically dungeon drops have all types of special effects on them, notably extra HP and damage. If you can hit all your timed swings diamond tools are more than worth using, its just no one can hit them and so everyone chooses to use gold weapons.

joshtsai said:

I think the worse offender(which probably is the class that Zidane references) ninja is outputting so much damage not due too vorpal weapons/gold weapons but rather backstab. @Irishman81 I noticed that the latest week of balance changes weren't put in, perhaps this week with some ninja changes?

Also its worth noting that diamond tools, specifically dungeon drops have all types of special effects on them, notably extra HP and damage. If you can hit all your timed swings diamond tools are more than worth using, its just no one can hit them and so everyone chooses to use gold weapons.

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Kainzo never got back to me about any backstab numbers, as I can't view them in the current config, so nothing was finalized for last week.

I've been playing Ninja a while now and have noticed not much difference at all between Dia and Gold swords. Actually, after using basic Dia sword for quite a while I got used to the attack timer system and thought I was able to take out targets quicker than when I tried using the Gold, but that would need more testing.

I'm also not really noticing Backstab being too strong in my opinion especially seeing as how very situational it is. Having to reach a player from behind undetected is no easy task, and even if one or two backstabs get in, that's all I get before they turn around and deny me any more. Ninja is mostly based around melee attacks seeing as it has only 2 damage skills and is squishy, Ninja highly depends on those backstabs to have a chance at defeating the target. Ninja is also a solo class, so taking on more than one enemy solo is not gonna end well for Mr Ninja regardless of backstab.

Ninja is meant to have an advantage from being sneaky and using backstab, not be equal to the target. True balance would be determined with head-on fights between 2 players of equal skill. I feel like most naysaying of the current backstab damage may be due to a skill difference or by players that have been in a disadvantageous situation when they died to a Ninja.

2¢

It's hard for me to see ninja as a sneaky type right now, I hardly see any sneaky maneuvers with ninja, it's basically go in then do a bunch of dps and run. Maybe backstab is dependent but it's not a requirement, backstab needs a look-at. @spiralz