Suggestion Ninja skills balance and reagents in the context of server economy/mobs

[Theshadown]

Hey people. I have some comments about my class.
I have a ninja at lvl 24 and usually play in a group of 5 (we built our own town and have nice professions) .

About reagents:
The thing is, I never ever use my skills aside from backstab and backflip.
The reason? simple. Gunpowder is extremely rare...... the only source I know so far is to farm creepers. Which is almost impossible with a melee class when they have 600-1000 hp. Even if I could kill them, the spawn and drop rates are just too low.

The cooldowns of blitz a smoke, together with smoke short duration mean these skills are to be spamed but that's just not possible...

Reagents for skills should always be easily obtainable and farmable items, like charcoal and so. Even the flint for the shurinkens although not rare, is really cumbersome to farm, aaaaaand, u need it for arrows (this can be solved with a factory but it is a bit overkill when other classes just don't require reagents at all).


For example:
My friend has a paladin and all his skills use just mana. He can easily tank zombies from a spawner (3-4 at a time) and keep 2 other people plus himself healed, while doing reasonable dmg. On the other hand, I have to beg for arrows to our ranger or try to backstab the zombies which end up hitting me, breaking the sneak which I need to efficiently backstab...


About balance:

Overall I think the Ninja has only scape and finishing skills, which won't 1-hit kill anyway. What are they good at? killing casters? I'm not so sure, true dmg against light armored players and silence with short range are not so deadly. A pyro or wizard can blink and dodge me like champs. (chimps )
Team fight? no, definitely not good at this.
Dueling? mmm about average melee dpser but with light armor.... so, no..
Ranger? ninjas can use bows, yay! But no ranged skills... another no no
PVE master? silence against mobs without magic... backstab against mobs that can see u from behind.... no, completely useless.

Ninja stats as I see them (1 the less, 10 the most):
Support (heal, buff, etc): 0 (expected)
Solo PVE: 3 (true dmg against mostly unarmored mobs, high reagent cost, backstab imposible, silence against mobs without magic)
Team PVE: 5 (if u can backstab)
Solo PVP: 7 against casters (silence is nice, if u can land it...), 4 against anything else (no stun, no disarm, low armor, no heal/regen)
Team PVP: 0 (not even worth enumerating this)

Paladin stats as I see them:
Support: 7
Solo PVE: 7 (u can heal after battle or spam holy aura+iron door for almost afk zombie farming)
Team PVE: 7 (taunt, protections)
Solo PVP: 7 (stun, disarm, invulnerability.........) (as op as in WOW BC/WOTLK)
Team PVP: 7 (a lot of versatility)

In general, I think the ninja needs a rework:
- Envenom: is just a little additional dmg per hit... if u can hit your target to begin with.... it is boring and not really useful. Instead it should be a strong but short venom effect on target (like 5 seconds, 10 scalable dmg per tick) (whereas the ranger should have the opposite, a long duration week poison). This would add to the real lore of ninjas and be a lot more usable and efficient.

- Blitz: I like the idea of a "finisher move" (high pure dmg) but the reagent cost is too high to ever use it outside high lvl pvp... I would change the reagent to X redstone dusts and maybe lower it's dmg.

- Smoke: again, too expensive reagent cost to ever use it outside high lvl pvp, and anyway any random hitting or aoe breaks the effect, which is super short to begin with... The best this skill can do is buying time to scape (useless if the enemy have a slow or hook skill) or land a couple extra hits on a super slow target. (A pala can cast complete invulnerability with a cactus.... and I need gunpowder...)

- Garrote: this is like kick 2.0 it is not bad but it doesn't feel like a lvl 30 skill. Again, a pala gets a heal/dmg aura, a necro gets an hp drain... and the ninja just a second kick? Furthermore, a Pala can stun and disarm targets while a Ninja can only mute them????
Super useless in pve.

- Energize: 1 min CD to restore 500 stamina? feels completely useless but I'm too low lvl to know that for sure.


I know it is not a support or team focused class but it lacks self utility. Adding poison and slow is a must for melee light armored classes. And if we are given the use of the bow, we need at least a weak but useful skill at lvl 10ish to justify it.


Sorry for the long post.

 

[LordZelkova]

First of all, don't compare Ninja to Paladin or Necro. They all have their roles.
Secondly, I will agree ninja is in a bad spot, mainly due to tons of regents and lack of gunpowder around the map.

Garrote is useless, almost no ninja ever uses it.

Smoke+Blitz is an actually great combo, especially in a 1v1, since you can smoke and then start blitz (The warm up won't cancel smoke) but due to regents, neither skill can be used much.

Shurikens: They are spammable as fuck, and flint is very east to get. But they seem ok since they have a shortish range (Anyone feel free to correct me on these. I haven't played/looked into Ninja for a long time)

Bow & Arrow: Not your main weapon. Not even your main long range weapon. You should be using shurikens for range. It's like saying a bard should be using their 18 damage Bow & arrow. Just plain not worth it.

I do think Ninja needs some kind of Team Fight skills, since it really has none. And the only time it would help is if they got behind one of the Casters/Healers to burst them down (A runeblade could do this better, but RB also is bad in teamfights)

Energize is a good skill. 500 free Stamina? I'd kill for that.

Envenom is armor piercing, its more meant to help tackle armored foe's, though I do find the damage kinda meh for all the rogues.

 

[Watermelon_01]

Remember, ninja isn't the only class that takes tons of reagents. Wizard takes tons of gunpowder and redstone as well as slimeballs that can be rather difficult to obtain. Ninja does need some changes I agree, maybe with a little more armor but thats about it. You just have to know how to play it.

 

[Theshadown]

I know each class as a role. I'm not comparing that here. But a Paladin has a 7 out of 10 on each category (at least) while the ninja is worse on almost any aspect.

Yeah, I know there are some other classes that need reagents, I think that needs a global rework. I would even remove them completely. Mana and stamina in combination is enough to balance skill usage. Again, even if flint is cheap, farming half an hour to get a stack is boring and unrewarding.....


500 free stamina with almost no skill to use it is useless. Maybe spam shuriken's but that's it. Not a lvl 40 skill if u ask me. The 30 secs cd on eviscerate is enough to replenish the stamina with natural regen..

If a ninja is not meant to use the bow, then what's the point in the rogue path? I think 1 useful and weak skill with bow is a must as an opener in pve since we can't backstab mobs on solo....
I don't really see the problem with bards using a bow with a useful utility skill or as a battle starter. They are in the rogue path, not in supporter.


I get that the true dmg of the ninja is to balance it a little against heavy armored warriors but that is useless in pve or against other classes. Ninja dmg should use poisons or little magic dots. A ninja piercing armor is against all lore
And just to put more emphasis on it, ninjas need a slow and/or stun.
Example:
Paralyzing poison: 3 seconds of slight slow, if the target sprints during the duration (or it is a mob), it gets stunned for 1 sec.


Throwing armor in won't make the class more fun to use. Plz take that into account too as this is a game XD

 

[Watermelon_01]

1st of all ninja is the only one that can hide that way and have so much movement ability as well. Also, a complete lack of reagents would mean a complete rework of all of those skills. I dont think you realize how op some classes would be without them. Flint is easy, mine for 20 minutes and you will hit several gravel patches, go straight through them and you will get tons of gravel and flint. Bows are meant entirely for the ranger, if you complain about being able to use a bow you are dumb. You shouldn't have access to it at all. I guess maybe a bit of stun would make sense, as a bomb or grenade or something but with a reagent cost and some decently large mana or stamina cost. Piercing damage on the other hand is the reason you should want to go ninja or even dragoon. If you dont want to deal with leveling it or fighting non warriors with it then dont be that class. pretty simple.

 

[Theshadown]

Mmmmm sorry but that didn't add a lot to the topic.
I said already that flint is easy to farm, but is boring and unrewarding. Other classes have better skills that do not require reagents at all.
Why should a 3.5 breakable invisibility need a reagent while a a berserker finishing move don't? and Blitz is not a super op skill to begin with. What I mean is reagents should be everywhere or nowhere. No offense to the devs but it seems a little too random. If u don't want a skill to be used much, give it a huge CD and/or mana/stamina cost, not an economic drawback.

I wasn't clear but I'm not complaining about having the ability to use the bow, what I'm saying is the ninja should be a mid range unit, having some skill with the bow is reasonable (they used it in real life too).

Ninja speed is only a little better than heavy armored classes and negating fall dmg won't win u any pve nor pvp fight. Backflip is cool but any enemy sprinting towards you will catch up by the time u land. It is also is unusable in small spaces.
The hook is nice but there's not much use for infiltration in a server with so many protections (and is illegal to break protections by using skills anyway...). The pyro gets a non-reagent, cheap and low CD blink on lvl 1..... (it's hard to fight as a pyro at low lvl but that skill is super useful once u master it) yet I need to lvl a lot, have a bow and arrow, consume 2 strings to do more or less the same....

Anyway, mobility... is worth nothing for a melee fighter that can't stand a fight once it reaches the enemy.

I'm not sure but I would bet that the ninja armor piercing is not enough to win to a warrior class that could stun or disarm u. Not to mention that after u use that skills, your dmg against a heavy armored unit is lame.

 

[Watermelon_01]

Ninja imo is a utility class for the player that can either use it or wants to use it in the way its skills are oriented.

 

[WiseDragoon]

Ninja imo is a utility class for the player that can either use it or wants to use it in the way its skills are oriented.

Utility? Please explain yourself cause all if it's 'utility' is armor piercing low damage and some mobility it's a prty useless class....

By lore ninjas should have big starters (ambush and that kind of attacks) and then low but fast attacks, add venoms and some CC. Bows should be optional but damage should be fairly good. Oh, and some smoke screen and shadow meld or something.

 

[Watermelon_01]

He is one of few with true projectile attacks (not magic), with invisibility, a movement enhancing skill (grappling hook) and a unique passive (backstab).

 

[WiseDragoon]

I don't see how that helps you kill stuff when your overall dps is crap and you can't use skill because they require retarded reagents

 

[LordZelkova]

I don't see how that helps you kill stuff when your overall dps is crap and you can't use skill because they require retarded reagents

Regeants weren't as much of complaint before, the only reason gunpowder is hard to get cause they reduced mob spawns, and trying to farm creepers off spawners is impossible.

Gunpowder and Slimes both need to either be reduced in the amount needed or replaced.

Slimes should be replaced with Magma Creams (They're the new slime ball)

Gunpowder should be replaced with Redstone/anythingthatisntapaintogetlikegunpowderis

Don't complain about having to grind Flint. It is so god damn easy, and shurikens are a great skills. Low cost, spammable as hell (They have a .5cd, so it's shorter than the global CD) and armor pierce.

 

[Xhazed]

Just saying this, ninja just needs to be deleted and make a new class. Its just too hard to make it decent at pvp without it being op, and right now its the opposite aka bad, only really skilled people with 1000000 fps and good internet can play. And the other person has to be a mage class or just anything else

 

[WiseDragoon]

Regeants weren't as much of complaint before, the only reason gunpowder is hard to get cause they reduced mob spawns, and trying to farm creepers off spawners is impossible.

Gunpowder and Slimes both need to either be reduced in the amount needed or replaced.

Slimes should be replaced with Magma Creams (They're the new slime ball)

Gunpowder should be replaced with Redstone/anythingthatisntapaintogetlikegunpowderis

Don't complain about having to grind Flint. It is so god damn easy, and shurikens are a great skills. Low cost, spammable as hell (They have a .5cd, so it's shorter than the global CD) and armor pierce.

I personally am not complaining about flint, you can even place gravel, then break it and then get flint (it's time consuming tho, and you need A LOT of them). But I'm to see someone else thinks the same about gunpowder. A good replacement to it would be bone meal imo.
Anyway I don't think its fighting style is much ninja-like.

 

[Ice_Burner]

Ninja is too much of a skill based class. Your average PvP'er wouldn't be able to pick this class up and learn the way it goes, you'd need a Veteran who's been playing the class since Haven for it to be viable.

My suggestion? Make Ninja a little less skill based, and easier on the casual PvP'ers.

 

[Watermelon_01]

I don't see how that helps you kill stuff when your overall dps is crap and you can't use skill because they require retarded reagents

Just saying this, ninja just needs to be deleted and make a new class. Its just too hard to make it decent at pvp without it being op, and right now its the opposite aka bad, only really skilled people with 1000000 fps and good internet can play. And the other person has to be a mage class or just anything else

This /\ is exactly what I mean, it's not meant for PvP'ing, its a utility class meant for being weird/different/unique (whatever you want to call it).

 

[Theshadown]

This /\ is exactly what I mean, it's not meant for PvP'ing, its a utility class meant for being weird/different/unique (whatever you want to call it).

So again, plz explain what's the ninja good at.
Being different is not a game aspect afaik XD

If we go by the lore, ninjas should be all about single target pvp/pve. Yet u are saying it is not meant for pvp, and I know (cuz this is my class) it not good for pve either. Backstab is unusable in solo pve and not many people will turn your back to you in pvp....

Yet again, flint is easy to farm. But why should a ninja have to farm 30 mins a day to be able to use the only nice skill it has while other classes can just use their mana and see it regenerated naturally??? Reagent cost should be removed or completely negate the need for mana and stamina.




@minimike96
Plz, explain the rationale behind having only some skills which require reagents (no matter their cost) in addition to their mana/stamina cost and CD while others of arguably equal power don't.

If shurinken is as good as u say, then we have 2 situations:
1- I take the time to farm or the money to buy the reagents, shurinken is an OP skill. (not game breaking but really powerful)
2- I don't have the time/money to do that then shurinken is unusable.

This all or nothing, time/money bound skill feels completely out of place for a class (it is reasonable for professions). Why a rich/grindy player should have better skill usage than a commoner. A more reasonable approach would be to give it a longer CD.


PS: how is a magma cream less troublesome to get than a slime?????????

 

[LordZelkova]

So again, plz explain what's the ninja good at.
Being different is not a game aspect afaik XD

If we go by the lore, ninjas should be all about single target pvp/pve. Yet u are saying it is not meant for pvp, and I know (cuz this is my class) it not good for pve either. Backstab is unusable in solo pve and not many people will turn your back to you in pvp....

Yet again, flint is easy to farm. But why should a ninja have to farm 30 mins a day to be able to use the only nice skill it has while other classes can just use their mana and see it regenerated naturally??? Reagent cost should be removed or completely negate the need for mana and stamina.




@minimike96
Plz, explain the rationale behind having only some skills which require reagents (no matter their cost) in addition to their mana/stamina cost and CD while others of arguably equal power don't.

If shurinken is as good as u say, then we have 2 situations:
1- I take the time to farm or the money to buy the reagents, shurinken is an OP skill. (not game breaking but really powerful)
2- I don't have the time/money to do that then shurinken is unusable.

This all or nothing, time/money bound skill feels completely out of place for a class (it is reasonable for professions). Why a rich/grindy player should have better skill usage than a commoner. A more reasonable approach would be to give it a longer CD.


PS: how is a magma cream less troublesome to get than a slime?????????

Because of the Magma Cube spawners in dungeons. Stupidly easy to farm them.

Regents are for 2 reasons:
Lore & Balance

Lore: Spells usually require a catalyst or some kind of regent to cast (I'm looking at you D&D Rituals)

Balance: Helps make classes that have strong skills less spammable.
If Bolt, Blitz, or many of the other regent costing skills lost regents then they would either need Mana/Stam increase (Would just hurt every single class, not good for balance) or the damage would have to go down (Would make the skills less useful and less desireable, leading to classes not getting played and various balance issues).

Look at this way, Blitz is a 160 Armor Piecre damage. With no regent it would need a stam increase (Bad for Ninja, would make it even worse) or a damage reduction (Defeats the purpose of the skill. A High Damage Burst made for taking down Tanks/Low HP Targets).

 

[Theshadown]

Because of the Magma Cube spawners in dungeons. Stupidly easy to farm them.

Regents are for 2 reasons:
Lore & Balance

Lore: Spells usually require a catalyst or some kind of regent to cast (I'm looking at you D&D Rituals)

Balance: Helps make classes that have strong skills less spammable.
If Bolt, Blitz, or many of the other regent costing skills lost regents then they would either need Mana/Stam increase (Would just hurt every single class, not good for balance) or the damage would have to go down (Would make the skills less useful and less desireable, leading to classes not getting played and various balance issues).

Look at this way, Blitz is a 160 Armor Piecre damage. With no regent it would need a stam increase (Bad for Ninja, would make it even worse) or a damage reduction (Defeats the purpose of the skill. A High Damage Burst made for taking down Tanks/Low HP Targets).

I see, there are spawners. Although that could be a bottleneck and does not really answers why some classes need to worry about reagents why other don't.


Lore: Mmmmm I don't agree. I know they add a little lore but then why healing skills don't require at least a bottle of water? It is really inconsistent.

Balance: What you say is not really true. Evidence? the 10000000 mmo's out there where skills are more or less balanced using only mana/stamina and CD.
It is a complete contradiction. Reagents won't stop a player from spaming Blitz, it only makes it more economically expensive. So rich players can abuse it while others can't. How does that help the class balance?!?!?!?!
If u don't want a skill to be spammed, give it a longer CD. Increasing the stamina cost is completely reasonable, what's the big problem with that?
Managing the limited stamina/mana in the most efficient way is the player task. It would even give Energize a reason to be other than spaming shurinkens.



Additionally, adding reagents to the balance equation just makes all more difficult. You have to account for item availability, market price, stacking numbers, etc, etc. As a systems engineer myself I think is a really bad decision unless you have dedicated paid experienced workers to do the balancing. Just a couple weeks ago we made some custom classes using MagicSpells plugin for bukkit to play the Super Hostile map series with a couple of friends. After a lot experimentation (between 3 IT industry guys including myself) we ended up removing reagent cost and just playing around with CD because it complicated the balance a lot.
With this I'm not saying my ideas are better than yours (although the contradictions are evident in some places), but just to let u know I'm on the same boat